The WELL: deadsongs.vue.180: Ship Of Fools

#33: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Wed 9 Mar 11 19:22

Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:22:00 PST

From WH Auden's 'The Enchafed Flood or The Romantic Iconography of the Sea' Random House NY 1950:

"In consequence, though the metaphor of the ship of state or society appears early, it is only employed when society is in peril...When society is normal the image is the City or the Garden... The state ship that deliberately chooses the high seas is the state in disorder, the Ship of Fools, as in Barclay's adaptation of Brant's Narrenschiff:

'Lyke as a myrrour doth represent agayne The forme and fygure of mannes countenaunce So in our ship shall he se wrytyn playne The fourme and fygure of hys mysgovernaunce'" pp 8-9

The Romantics developed a new perspective:

"Thus Byron writes of the ocean:

'Man marks the earth with ruin - his control Stops with the shore.' (Childe Harold)

And Captain Nemo, the commander of the submarine Nautilus in 'Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea', cries:

The sea does not belong to despots. Upon its surface men can still exercise unjust laws, fight, tear one another to pieces, and be carried away with terrestrial horors. But at thirty feet below its level, their reign disappears. Ah, sir; live, live in the bosom of the waters. There only is independence. There I recognize no master's voice. There I am free." pp 16-17 [Read entire topic]

#32: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Tue 4 Apr 06 10:33

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:33:00 PDT

I have started singing this one, so I may gain some insights from that. [Read entire topic]

#31: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Sun 2 Apr 06 14:14

Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:14:00 PDT

Agree, definitely the captain's ship. [Read entire topic]

#30: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Mon 27 Feb 06 09:19

Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:19:00 PST

I was referring to the first administration's place in history. The boat, as I envisage it, being rocked by those inside it. This not meaning to disparage jstrahl's efforts, nor those of anyone else, to improve the functioning of the body politic.

On #29, I feel that "sink your ship of fools" refers to the captain's own ship, rather than being an offer to the captain to sink some other ship. [Read entire topic]

#29: from BAMFINNEY (tnf) Wed 22 Feb 06 08:58

Wed, 22 Feb 2006 08:58:00 PST

bamfinney writes:

In comparing the two songs, Ship of Fools and The Golden Vanity (if they can and should be compared so deeply), the cabin boy in GV offered to sink the "first ship," the "Turkish enemy." In SOF the narrator goes to see the strangest captain he can find and offers to sink the ship without even receiving any payment (so worthless is a ship of fools).

The cabin boy swims out to sink the ship, but by the time he gets back to his own ship, it's too late. This strange captain has turned on him and leaves him for the sea to swallow ("it was later than I thought").

Jerry, not like that other captain, will not abandon anyone to the sea. He won't simply let you drift down through the cold, murky depths. His hand is extended to you. After all, its not just a cabin boy. It's us. [Read entire topic]

#28: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Mon 20 Feb 06 12:25

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:25:00 PST

You mean '69-'73? One can only *wish* it had sunk from the rocking of the boat, i sure tried, along with lots of others:-). Or do you mean the protagonist is out to sink the first Nixon administration? Given the timing, he would be late ( i think the tune was written in late '73). [Read entire topic]

#27: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Fri 17 Feb 06 12:28

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:28:00 PST

Or the first Nixon administration? [Read entire topic]

#26: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Sat 24 Dec 05 20:59

Sat, 24 Dec 2005 20:59:00 PST

First ship sink and drown from the "rocking of the boat", ie the increasing paralysis of the US gov't by the late '60s in the face of massive rebellions within the African American community, on campuses, even within the armed forces,...Similarities to the "rock the boat" line in US Blues. The protagonist is out to sink the new ship of fools. [Read entire topic]

#25: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Wed 23 Feb 05 18:33

Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:33:00 PST

Thanks for the good discussion, guyz. I'm satisfied -- If nobody has any better interpretation for this song than the vauge one i've mulled over for the past 30 years, if the words are really not tied to any specific incident or group that we can ascertain... Then it just is what it is. And that's good enough. [Read entire topic]

#24: David Dodd (ddodd) Wed 16 Feb 05 13:41

Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:41:00 PST

Me neither. [Read entire topic]