Martha Soukup (soukup) Tue 9 Oct 01 13:59
I don't think there's anything "psychologically wrong" with liking an unmadeup look on oneself, and I'm sure Cynthia wouldn't say so either. The problem is--you need makeup to look unmadeup, if you have blemishes or redness or dark circles. And that's very hard for un-makeupy people to figure out how to do.
blather storm (lolly) Tue 9 Oct 01 14:45
Ah, what the hell, so there's a zit. Life goes on.
Martha Soukup (soukup) Tue 9 Oct 01 14:58
I'm in between "Say it loud, I'm acne'd and I'm proud" and wanting a glamor look. This group has got to be about the hardest to give makeup advice to, Cynthia? Or not?
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:18
Casey: in re: fingernails. I must have the softest nails on God's green earth having bitten them until my first marriage ceremony when I let them grow out. I tried Barielle the stuff that was refined from horse hoof strengthener and it made my nails dry and split. The only thing that has helped them is Nailtiques No. 2 which I have used for three yaers now as my base coat. I am never without nail polish on as I think the formaldehyde actually does help strengthen them. I also buy my Nailtiques though ballbeauty.com which is about $6-7 cheaper than the store.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:24
Leroy: The Magic liquid power is a fabulous! fabuous! fabulous! product and works really well over no makeup at all. I been tellin' ya: be very very specific when you sit down in a makeup artists chair and tell them: I like my foundation sheer, sheer, do you hear? I am makeup phobic and only want to look rested, or even-toned or polished, but not over done. Use the "Whore of Babylon" phrase and have them lighten up. And once you get the stuff home, practice in front of the mirror. Your fingers are the best applicators. Make sure they are clean and touch foundation to the center of your forehead, chin and in the middle of both cheeks and blend like hell. You can dust on transluscent powder to set, or not. Or put on blusher or not. but make sure you do NOT makeup in natural daylight for a couple of reasons. First of all, it's depressing as hell and secondly, most people who wear makeup do not work in direct sunlight. Makeup for the light you're in the most. As for the olive shadow. Is it powder? You can use it to line your eyes instead of pencil or even black. It's softer and is a neutral and will work well especially with green or blue or gray eyes. If you want to fluff it on your lid, use a soft brush that will not pick up too much powder when you fluff it on the makeup. Blend it really well. In the book, I have an exercise to find the topography of your face, including where your eyelid is and where to stop with the shadow -- which is right up under the occipital bone, just on the curve of the lid. It's very basic, requires no artistic endeavor or talent and will look nice in a color wash (very light) or darker closer to the lid. As for the counter girls at Prescriptives, they get very good training. I'm not sure what the styles are like down south where you are, Leroy, but Prescriptives is a very tailored, neat, scientific line and they do not go for garish.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:27
Martha: You're right about the no-makeup makeup look. It's all about looking natural. All about even skin tone which you can do with moisturizer (tinted works) or a vry light foundation and a neutral blusher, most likely a cream, that will blend in so well, you can't see the edges. As for the eyes: a great brow, with all the extraneous hairs taken out, brushed and then set with a clear brow fix will frame a face. A little brown mascara which is very soft and will allow the blonde tips of all lashes (even the darkest ones) to be covered is all you need, with maybe some neutral lip gloss or a very light tinted one like Kiehl's Natural or BeneTint lip gloss from BeneFit.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:28
Another thing I want to say about this last post is: a face that is applied that way, with a light hand and n atural-looking cosmetics is like a suit that has been tailored well or a sweater and skirt fresh out of the cleaner bag. It just looks crisp and neat and well-tended without being studied or over done. It's good manners, that's what it is -- on the face.
blather storm (lolly) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:33
(I speak only for myself, of course, re the zit look. And luckily, not as often as in my youth). Truth is, I just don't see the point. But I know many enjoy it, I used to like it and still have some v. fancy Prescriptives stuff. Just got, you know, bored and who's got the time. I think this happened about the same time as I threw away all my pretty-but- uncomfortable shoes.
Martha Soukup (soukup) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:34
#56: Can this be done in three minutes? I can't imagine wanting to wear mascara every day. The feeling of it is so distracting. Instead I've often used a tiny bit of soft brown eyeshadow as an eyeliner, because I can't feel that.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:37
To the other Cynthia: If you are a pale-skinned blonde, you're right: black mascara make syou look like a Helmut Newton S and M photo (unless you're ready to commit to the entire tuff chic chick look and that is very hard to carry off). So, using a taupe eye liner and light brown mascara or even a burgundy or a marine blue is much softer than black. The mascaras on the market this year are all colored again. so it's fun to play. But I agree with you: blue is softer on pale blondes than black. And if you add a sheer wash of baby blue shadow close to the lashes, it can do wonders for blue eyes.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:39
A lot of NO. 56 can be done very quickly once you're practiced and you know what you're doing. At the Trish McEvoy counter, they will give you a makeup lesson: they will do half your face and you do the other half. Same with Laura Mercier counter. Or just have the makeup artist walk you through it step by step. And then come home and practice. If you can't do it in 5 minutes, you're taking too much time and it will not look like you just dashed out of the house with great skin and a smile on your face. In the book: I have a 3 minute makeup; a 5 minute makeup and evening makeup. ( I love the latter because I LOVE to paint up with red lips and smokey black rimmed eyes. But I'm a 50s girl and graphic makeup pleases me.)
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:43
Cynthia: as for Renova, yes, it is very drying. Is your skin very pale, thin English-Irish? Do you tend to dryness anyhow? Then get yourself a very good moisturizer, one that will renourish your skin. As I always recommend, go to the makeup counter and ask for samples for two or three different weight product. Use one for three days: do you like the scent, the weight? Does it clog your pores? Can you see a difference. Try them all that way. And if after 3 days, you haven't broken out and your skin feels less itchy and tight, then maybe you should be gentling your skin down from the treatment. That trentinoic acid can be very drying and often, the side effects are worse than the condition it is prescribed to correct.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:44
Lolly: a lot of women just say, why bother and give it all up. If that fits your lifestyle, then concentrate of keeping your skin healthy. Keep it clean, drink lots of water, use your sunscreen and moisturize. That's about it.
Martha Soukup (soukup) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:44
The three-minute promise is reassuring.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Tue 9 Oct 01 15:52
Yup, it is, Martha. also: is this group difficult? you betcherass it is. But I am proud to say that once I got a lesbian feminist who thought I was the silliest woman in the world, to wear moisturizer by appealing to her sense of healthy well-being. One of the reasons I wrote the book was because of the plethora of differences the conferences I was in on The Well and the variations and YMMVs all over The Well when the subject of lipstick, mascara and powder came up. Eveyrone has different tastes and tolerances and what I wanted to do with "The Beauty Workbook" was to defuse the subject by making it simple and allowing it to make sense. I love makeup. I love skincare stuff. But that doesn't mean somebody else has the same time, affection, money or patience to indulge. But there is one thing I am adamant about: Skin cancer is the one cancer that is totally preventable! So: the mantra is: Wear your sunscreen. Don't leave home without it!
Martha Soukup (soukup) Tue 9 Oct 01 17:29
I enjoy wearing hats and keeping in the shade. Heh. But, yep, I have my 15-strength moisturizer for when that's not possible. By the way, I think it's completely cool for people to look however they want to, in case that wasn't clear!
Linda Castellani (castle) Tue 9 Oct 01 18:31
Cynthia your writing has such style! There is a very detailed chapter on skin that starts with the sentence "Your skin is the one organ that is brazen enough to appear naked in public." How could one not be drawn in by that and feel compelled to continue reading? Martha's comment about her SPF 15 makes me want to move on to that discussion, but before I do, let me tell those who might be interested in this book, that when Cynthia discusses skin types she mentions five: Normal/Combination, Dry, Oily, Sensitive, and Aging Skin, which is two types more than I normally see discussed anywhere. From reading this, I now understand that I am definitely a Sensitive Skin type, and I now have some explanations for stubborn issues that have plagued me all my life. I also have fewer options that those with the other skin types, but now I have a trade-off for some understanding. The first section of the book is devoted to sun, something that Cynthia has been on all of us about since this interview started. In the book, she goes into some very detailed descriptions of the differences between UVA, UVB, and UVC (which I had never heard of) and where one encounters each and how to combat each type. In addition, she gives some very thorough information about where we've gotten into trouble with this over the years. She gives us the history of the sun tan (who knew?) and how and why rules for tanning have changed over the years. We will get into how SPF came into being, and explore sunless tanners, how to choose one and how to apply one. But for now, let's talk about the sun and its rays, Cynthia. Will you tell us about what we should watch out for, about physical and chemical sunscreens, and about the tan-specific skin types (that are different from the general skin types mentioned about)?
Cynthia Barnes (cynthiabarnes) Tue 9 Oct 01 18:35
Thanks, Cynthia. I'll start searching for good night creams. My coloring is weird ... I'm a brown-eyed blonde. Most warm and cool colors look OK on me, but I prefer cool. So I keep my makeup colors to a minimum, and try to achieve a very neutral look.
blather storm (lolly) Tue 9 Oct 01 22:06
(Cynthia, thanks - that sounds exactly right for me. And a hairdo I don't need to comb!)
Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 10 Oct 01 00:15
E-mail from Angela Peck: You have some great advice as far as I can tell Cynthia, I just have one comment. I have been an esthetician for over 2 years now and I'm always very frustrated with the fact that beauty books never refer people to spas or skin care centers for their skin care products. A lot of people aren't aware of the fact that the active ingredients in MOST department store and drug store products are only 'token' ingredients. One big reason for this is because people who work at the drugstore or cosmetics counter aren't trained how to effectively analyze your skin. As a result of this, their products are mass produced in such low concentrations as to irritate as few skins as possible. On top of that, *a lot* of what you pay for that product goes towards marketing. This is rarely the case with professional products. Since estheticians are licensed, the products that we carry have a *much* higher amount of active ingredients. We can analyze your skin and are aware of how all of the ingredients in the products interact with each other and what would work best with your skin. Most estheticians go through a lot of training and because of this are able to 'prescribe' stronger products. The cost that you pay for our products pays for our expertise and the high concentration of active ingredients. Wouldn't you say that that's a better investment? PS...I haven't read your book yet, so I do not know if you address this issue....I was only reading the posts....but I will check it out because it does sound like you have a lot of great information....
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Wed 10 Oct 01 06:18
This book was turned in with an 80,000 word manuscript that got cut in half. A lot of things I wanted to address did not make the book. Since it is mainly about self-care and self-esteem, discussions about professional facials was cut to a minium. yesw, I agree that having a good esthetician is a luxury one should cater to -- and then it's not a luxury. But I think good skin care starts at age 11 or 12, right at puberty where good habits are taught: drinking water, staying out of the sun, keeping dirty hands off faces; keeping hair off your face, using sun screen and or blocks, using products on your face that don't occlude your pores or make you break out. when you're older, a good plce to START is the dermatologist. Many of them have estheticians on staff. Many of them can refer you to a good esthetician who, yes, has been trained to identify skin problems and help eliminate the non-medical ones. Products that are sold by a professional esthetician tend to be more specific and probably stronger than the OTC products, but probably not that much stronger unless he or she is working out of a dermatologist's office. You are paying for their expertise, sure. But if you're at a professional spa, you are also paying a commission to the facialist. I talk about this in the hair section, too. Because specialized hair lines are more expenisve than drug store hair lines. Look: I don't are how you do it -- professional help or do-it-yourself, the message here is: Just do it (with apologies to Nike).
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Wed 10 Oct 01 06:27
There are two kinds of sun's rays that bother Earthlings: UVBs which are the short rays that burn you initially (thus: the mnenomic: B for Buring) or the UVAs which are the long rays and more insidious -- they are the ones that can penetrate car safety glass, 9 feet of water; can bounce off table tops, snow drifts and sidewalks and eventually, cause break down in the collagen layer, discolorations and lines and wrinkles and, skin cancer and melanoma. Thus the mnenomic: A for Aging. You can use a sun screen which is a chemical screen and usualy goes up to SPF 15 to screen out the burning rays of the sun. But if you are very light skinned, come from English-Irish or Scandinavian background and burn very easily, then a higher SPF (Sun Protection Factor) is necessary and you can find products that are called sun blocks, not screens, that will physically impede the sun's rays. Those have physical products in them that sit on TOP of the skin (usualy titanium dioxide, zinc oxide or a zinc oxide derivative with smaller molecules that don't appear noxiously white and opaque, called Z-Cote (a patented product). SPF is the time it takes you to burn multiplied by 10. If you burn in ten minutes of sun exposure, and you use a product with SPF 15 in it, theoretically, you can stay in the sun 150 minutes with this product before you burn. Well, this is misleading and gives you a false sense of security because 1) you sweat the product off; 2) you don't put enough on in the irst place; 3) you swim it off; 4) it wears off. Rule of thumb: Put on enough product and reapply often, and use other factors like long-sleeved shirts in tightly-woven fabrics (if you hold it up and it casts a shadow, it will block the sun); large hats that will cover the back of your neck and chest; sunglasses with wide temple bars that will protect the delicate skin around your eyes; sit under an umbrella or in shade; don't go out in the sun between 10 a.m and 2 p.m. (11 a.m. and 3 p.m. in daylight savings) because that's when the sun is the closest to the earth. As for the UVC rays: not to worry unless the ozone layer gets completey screwed up. They are the shortest, most damaging of the sun's rays, but don't reach earth. Or at least, haven't yet.
Jessica Mann Gutteridge (jessica) Wed 10 Oct 01 10:46
Cynthia, the book is absolutely beautiful, and I love how well-organized it is. I'm enjoying working through it now. I have two questions: 1. I'm definitely in the 3 minute makeup crowd, and since I work in a fairly conservative field, I generally go for simple, well-groomed, finished looks. But I am also a makeup addict, and I love following what's going on in makeup trends. What are some ways to bring some trendy fun back into my makeup routine without looking like a teenager? 2. I tend to buy makeup and cosmetics from the fancier department store lines, but though the packaging is stunning and it's fun to buy those products, I'd love to be able to save some money and get some convenience by shopping some of the drugstore lines. Do you have any good ways to sort through what's out there and know which things are worth splurging on, and which have cheaper alternatives?
No "punch the monkey" banner ads. (vard) Wed 10 Oct 01 13:27
I believe it was cynthiar who turned me on to the Maybelline cream-to-powder stick makeup, which is excellent, much better than some brands I have bought that cost three times as much.
Martha Soukup (soukup) Wed 10 Oct 01 14:34
Actually I use that Maybelline stuff. It's Buffy's makeup! But it does only a so-so job of evening out redness, especially nosewise.
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