Laura Proctor (proctor) Fri 12 Oct 01 21:13
Cynthia, I decided I liked looking like a clown after all. <rimshot> But seriously, folks . . . In all seriousness, after experimenting with a few different lipstick shades (I was heavy into the "neutral" look in the late 80s--it was very hot at the time and was probably just lovely on other women, but it made me resemble a corpse), I decided that vivid red lipstick went well with my coloring (very pale skin and very dark hair). It created a nice contrast. And it seems to match my personality, or rather, I feel as though it does. So red lipstick and black mascara and not much other makeup--that's *my* signature look, as Linda alludes to above.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Sat 13 Oct 01 07:33
Two things about "signature looks." One of them will date you terribly and the other, which will change every so slightly with technology and technique, will make you look au courant without being trendy. The signature look: Have you ever seen a woman with Farrah wings and three layers of beige, brown and white eyemakeup like the 70s? She probably decided that that's when she looked her best and has stayed that way. I call it being "permaplaqued in time." You could see it with women who grew up in the 50s with their blue eyeshadow and their teased-up beehives. Or the woman who clung to her Dorothy hamill wedge? (Even Hamill doesn't wear her hair like that any more). Point is: These women have tried to stop time. Their signature look never evolved. To develop and "look" for yourself, doesn't mean that it will remain static. I decided a long time ago that my eyes were the best feature on my face, so my hairdresser and I invented hair styles that would emphasize my eyes. My eye makeup does that, too. I happen to like my eyes lined all the way around, whether it is in style or not, so you will always see me with a lot of mascara on and probabyl dark gray or brown-black all the way around my eyes, sometimes heavier than others; sometimes smudgy in the corner, whatever. Depending upon a couple of things: techniques I learn from the makeup artists who work on me or what I've seen in magazines and wanted to try. I also love red lipstick and if you talk to a makeup artist, it seems that if your eyes are ephasized, your lips aren't. Well, I feel naked in beige lipstick and naked without my thick eyelashes, so what's a girl to do: My signature look then is dark lips AND dark eyes and I don't care what the current fashion is. It's MY style. I got there with a lot of experimentation and education of my eye. For education's sake (aquainting myself with new products, new colors and new techniques for my job), I have painted up occasionally in front of my m irror and worn the look around the house. Things that are absolute no-nos for me are: gray liner which I don't think works on a brunette; pink lipstick which makes me look like Barbie (or rather, I FEEL like Barbie); orange red lipstick which is clownish on me while clear reds and dark reds aren't (again, my own emotional feelings here); heavy foundation which finds its ways into the developing cracks and crevaces on my face; the no-makeup look which makes me look deceased. Other people's eyes and emotions are different. One woman at work wore a lot of makeup to look like she had none on. Imagine that? Well, there is a huge market out there for women who want to look "finished but not done," ie. like they are well-groomed and polished, but not madeup looking. For them, the neutral palatte is terrific -- blushers in brownish/pink tones; a quick swirl of brown mascara and no liner on the eyes; lipsticks that are more like tinted glosses or even just using a lip-toned lip liner on the lips with clear gloss. Anything that will add a little punch to the face without making it look like Puncinella. It's a really pretty clean look, outdoorsy, very Ralph Laurenish. The message is: good grooming is equated with a clean, healthy look. For the woman who likes traditional sports clothes, great jeans, a white man-tailored shirt, a beautifully-cut jacket and highly-polished boots (a look made very popular by Michael Kors this seasn), then a neutral face is appropriate (although I love to see a neutral face with a great red lip). Think about the signature looks of movie stars: Cher -- Goth girl. colorful wigs. heavily-made up eyes (last year, she was wearing red shadow). a neutral or brownish lip. She knows what looks good on her and she goes for it: emphasizing her huge, heavy-lidded, deep-set eyes. Nicole Kidman: Red lips. Always. her coloring is so delicious and her hair is so "there," she needs to point up her makeup else she woud be lost in all that red-gold hair. So, she does black mascara and ephasizes her brows which are very pale and she wears deep red or burgundy lipstick. Elizabeth Taylor: It didn't matter that it wasn't the 50s or 60s any more, Taylor always knew that the money was in her eyes and she made them up heavily to emphasize the deep lavender/blue color and her thick, double lashes. You'll notice that now that she's almost 70, she's calmed it down quite a bit. Katharine Hepburn: Mrs. Natural. She let her freckles show through; piled her hair up on top of her head and didn't give a damn what she looked like. SHE was Kate Hepburn. Her look never changed. Nor did we ever expect it to. It would have been gilding the lily. Her beauty had an odd Down East integrity of a pioneering spirit that was not dependent on cosmetics or artifice. Jean Harlow: Her eyebrows were flea circus tightropes; her skin was alabaster (or so it seemed in high-contrast black and white Panchromatic film) and her hair was like spun sugar. The look developed for her by the studio was comic vamp. The Hays office decreed that too much skin showed in movies and that costumers had to cover their stars up. So: they put them in revealing satin dresses with no underwear (that was more provocative in the long run than nude decollatage) and cut the close down to the crack in the rear in back. It was the Depression times and films were great escapiest fare for people who had to cash in their pop bottles to get the nickle it cost to go to the movies. But the studios gave people fantasy: perfection. Goddesses who were not marble but looked like marble. Hence: the airbrushed perfection of Harlow's face, hair and body. At least, on screen. In the 30s, it was Harlow, Mae West (which was pretty much parody anyhow considering that she was int her late 30s when she began acting in films), Dietrich and Carol Lombard. All of them were polished, living goddesses.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Sat 13 Oct 01 07:35
Oops, didn't want to confuse anyone about the gray eyeliner thing. I'm talking the difference between charcoal gray which is softer than black and a black substitute which I do use; and a lighter gray with lavender tones which I don't.
Linda Castellani (castle) Sat 13 Oct 01 12:52
Speaking of signature looks, let's not forget Tammy Faye! In the book, Cynthia offers several questionnaires, designed to determine wher you are a Makeup Phobe, a Diva in Training, Trapped in a Cosmetic Time Warp, a Makeup Addict or a Makeup Diva. These are fun, while at the same time, revealing, and worth the price of the book. In the Color section of the chapter on Makeup is a Color Attitude survery that can help you decide what colors are right for you, something that's difficult to do on paper, but I think the books succeeds. One of the things that I thought was interesting was your statement about Beauty Makeovers and whether or not they work, Cynthia. I love makeovers, and I think they are big fun, either on myself or watching someone else be made over. You said that there were even some follow-ups to makeovers, where the makeover subjects were studied over a period of time to see if they adopted any of the suggestions made for them, and if so, if they continued to wear the new style. Do makeovers work? If they don't, why not?
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Sat 13 Oct 01 15:58
Psychologically, the words "make over" implies that there is something wrong with you to begin with. I would prefer: "make with's" because if you want to change your look, you have to work with the person who is attemtping to modernize your look and tell them: 1) What you life is about 2) How adept you are with brushes -- both makeup and hair 3) How much time and money you have to spend 4) How you feel about yourself. It's important for a makeup artist whose chair you're sitting in to have a clue as to the real you. Your perception when you look in the mirror is not their's. They may put the new fall "look" on you and think you're fab and you're thinking: They're trying to sell me product because they're on commission or they just don't have a clue or they're looking at me through a lens I can't relate to. Most people who turn themselves over lock stock and barrel to stylists and makeup and hair people are very insecure and I think, too trusting. I once was at a makeover for Tammy Faye, speaking of which, and the woman wanted to take off her eyelashes. I mean, take off her eyelashes????? They ARE Tammy Faye. Who, incidentally, pitched a bitch. She is made over all the time and none of it sticks. She likes the way she looks. She told Coreen Cordova, the makeup artist who helped me with some of the book: "I always wanted to look like a kewpie doll." Period. End of story.
Linda Castellani (castle) Sat 13 Oct 01 23:18
There is A LOT more in the book about makeup, but I'd like to move on to the section on Hair for now. You describe the hair you were born with versus your best friend's hair and how very different they both were. You then go on to say that the only time you had the thick, luxuriant hair you longed for was in the mid-60's when hair pieces were in vogue. I just wanted to say that applies to me, too! In about 1966 I started wearing a fall with a rat underneath it give it some height, and an elastic fabric headband to cover the line of demarcation. I bought it at, of all places, White Front, a Zody's/Akron/Gemco precurser, kind of like Target is today, and it was a perfect match. Later, in 1972, I wore a wig that made me look exactly like Maria Schneider in Last Tango in Paris. I loved it, and wish that hair pieces would make a come-back. Before we get into hair and what to do about it - would you like to speculate on why hairpieces went away and whether we can expect to see them back again?
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Sun 14 Oct 01 04:17
Linda: Hair pieces ARE back. All you have to do is walk into any mall (even the S.F. Center where Nordy's is downtown, and thre are these kiosks with mini-falls and pieces attached to alligator combs that just clip onto the back of your head. Before I got my hair cut, I had about three or four of them in varying lengths. I love them, are you kidding? When I moved to San Francisco, I got rid of a lot of things and one of them was a wig box full of fake hair. Of course, it was my former color, my natural-before-gray-turned-me-into-a-sort-of-blonde, shade of brunette. But I had wiglets, falls, pieces, braids, you name it. And I threw the all away! Now, I've got bags of wigs and fake hair tucked into my product closet, just in case I ever let my hair grow out enough to attach them to something.
Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 14 Oct 01 19:59
I am so tempted...
Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 14 Oct 01 20:00
E-mail from Carol: I often get an all over red tone to my facial skin and it bothers me. Light makeup seems to cover it pretty well but there are times I do not want to wear face makeup and would like some alternatives. Any suggestions, Carol
charged with insult and flattery (pellmell) Mon 15 Oct 01 07:27
hey cyn, what's the deal with concealer? i have good skin and see no reason to cover it up with foundation, but i have dark circles under my eyes and they seem especially prominent in photographs. What can a poor girl do?
Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 15 Oct 01 11:27
I think that Cynthia is traveling on a book promotion thing, so we may have to wait until tomorrow for our answers!
Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 15 Oct 01 11:37
E-mail from Megan Dietz: makeup has always been a big point of contention in my family because every female on my mom's side sells mary kay ... my grandma even had a pink cadillac for a while! so as soon as i was old enough, they were kidnapping me for makeover classes and dousing me in brown eyeshadow and mauve lipstick. ew! i have dark brown hair, pale freckly skin and big brown eyes, so in addition to the trauma of having 20 pounds of goo slathered on my face against my will and appearing to be 30 when i was only 15, i also looked dead ... heinous ... no matter how great all my mary kay aunties said i looked. so i stayed away from makeup, but i was always slightly miffed about it. like there was this superfun thing that all the girls got to do that i didnt because mary kay ruined it for me. i actually felt androgynous, not like a girl at all, though i always wanted to be. it wasnt until i was about 21, out of college and working retail with a very wonderful, very girly girl named michelle, that i found my girly self. she was the first person to encourage me to wear what i wanted ... and what i wanted was orange eyeshadow and periwinkle lipstick and white eyeliner (with psychedelic housecoats and big platform shoes). and somehow, the weird stuff i picked always seemed to look great. i guess i had good instincts all those years ... but since mary kay didnt produce those colors (and i was officially verboten to buy any other brand) i just backed off. for years now i have been addicted to the bizarre urban decay and hard candy colors ... glitter and irridescence ... peacock colors. and of course, the much discussed classic red lipstick look. my mary kay relatives have given up on me. they just take one look my ultraviolet blue-white eyeliner and cluck their tongues. and it's awesome. makes me feel like supergirl ... to be able to duck into the ladies room as a mild-mannered software developer and come out as a total hottie. my questions are these ... --what is the next frontier for a girl who likes to push the makeup envelope? --why is it that bright colors like turquoise look great as eyeliner but crappy as eyeshadow? --i want thin, archy eyebrows like rachel weisz in "the mummy" ... but i am afraid. how does one prepare to do this to oneself? is there a technique for sketching out the shape you want or should i grab a picture and see a professional? thanks by the way. this is a fun discussion.
Jessica Mann Gutteridge (jessica) Tue 16 Oct 01 10:54
Oooh, I love those Hard Candy and Urban Decay colors too, though my boring job and life limits my use to special occasions and toenails. Eagerly awaiting Cyn's response.
Linda Castellani (castle) Tue 16 Oct 01 11:59
Me, too. I know she said she had to go to New York and was leaving Sunday and back on Tuesday, so I'm hoping she'll be here sometime today. Mega, I am so impressed with the signature look you've developed for yourself. I love those colors!
special occasions and toenails (vard) Tue 16 Oct 01 15:26
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Wed 17 Oct 01 06:31
Hello all, I am back from New York where I was a panelist on at a smiel mini-conference with Meredith Vieiera, Dr Jeffrey Golub-Evans a cosmetic dentist and a "smile psychologist" from Berkeley named Dacher Keltner (whose cousin is the fabulous rock drummer, Jim Keltner). Lovely time. They put me up at the Giraffe on Park at 26th which was gorgeous. Anyhow: Megan, you've got me smiling from ear to ear. I love it that your reaction to Mary Kay was to rock out like a total Glitter Girl. Keep up the good work. Turquoise is a terrific eyeliner. MAC put out a color last year that I used to use on my upper lid only close to the lash line called Electric Eel which is sooooooo gorgeous and looked fabulous wtih a wash of pinky coral shadow above it and very black mascara. Turquoise eyeshadow is very retro 50s and can be very hard looking. It's a color so cool, it's cold and really doesn't highlight too many skin colors, but used as a teensy little accent over green or blue eyes and it makes eye color pop. For the Makeup Diva who likes to push the envelope, things are looing up, sort of: Chanel has very very dark nail polishes like Cobra and an out and out black which they're showing with an overlay of silver sparkle. Lancome also has a bottle of golden sparkle to put on the nails in a diagonal pattern over deep burgundy or dark brown polish. Also from Chanel frm fall: their Red No. 1 lipstick with metallic gold eyeshadow. It is a very intense look. Eyelashes are also back. Sebastian Trucco's fall collection looked like Super Drag Queen: metallic red or blue or gold fake lashes with mascaras to match and very very light lipstick. I also love Lancome's Juicy Tubes for eyes which you can put over ay dark shadow and it slicks it down. It's a very 30s kind of look, very Dieterich. As for paring your brows down: as someone who wrote "The Eyebrow" for an eyebrow plucker, don't. The maintenance is fierce and not everybody can carry off that look. It's so, so . . . permanent while you have it and sometimes, those little hair do not grow back so it's really permanent. In the 30s, those idealized looking woman, and they did resemble marble statues, had an entire phalanx of studio makeup men to mantain their brows (although Lana Turner's never grew back. She wore fakes the rest of her life -- little known factoid here. . .) If you do want to pare your brows down, by all means, do not do it yourself at first but here's how just in case you don't want to go to a pro: take an eyebrow brush and brush your brows in a upward motion. if you need to trim them, use a teensy eyebrow comb and a pair of vry sharp, straight-edged mini-scissors and cut only the eyebrows that stick way up in your comb. find your arch. The easiest way to do that is put your head down so that your chin is touching your chest; arch your eyebrows exaggeratignly and with your fingers, feel your brow and at the point where your finger starts sloping downward toward the outside margins of your brow (the side closest to your ear), that's the apex of the brow, your arch. It should be slightly left of the center of the iris of your eye. to determine the shape you want: you can sketch in a shape with either a small mitered-edge eyebrow brush and dark brown powder and you can use a white eyeliner pencil or even a concealing pen and block out the extraneous hairs. When you get a shape you like, then you pick up your tweezers and tweeze out the hairs colored by the light pencil or concealer. It hurts. No question, but you can cool or numb the area with an ice cub and afterward with witch hazel. Me? I prefer to have my brows done professionaly -- waxed. Which doesn't hurt all that much, is cleaner and doesn't have to be done more than every 6 weeks. Besides, I like the shape my person gets my brows (she's let them grow in a bit at my request) and I don't even worry about plucking out stray hairs. I just trust them to her.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Wed 17 Oct 01 06:33
Jessica: Since both companies have sold to mainstream cosmetic giants (Urba Decay to LVMH and Hard Candy to either LVMH or Lauder,can't remember). they have added a m ore "polite" color range. But I love Gash which is a really violent red and Oilslick and the original metallic blue frm Urban Decay which I still wear on my toes. Very subversive stuff and if you can rock out on the weekends, colors to be seen in public,. Hard Candy makes an incredible glitter eyeliner pencil that I totally recommend. Talk about subversive. Winking without winking. Flirting by just closing your eyes.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Wed 17 Oct 01 06:38
To Carol: You an cut some of the redness in yoru ski and protect it at the same time without using full makeup and concealer by usign one of the new mattifying tinted moisturizers that have a little more yellow in them. Divinora from Guerlain; YSL has one; so does Remede from Bliss spa. You an get them on very very sheerly. As for concealers; if you're using one under your eyes with no other makeup, try the Touche Eclat (Radiant Touch) pen from YSL. It's a miracle product. Instant face lift. Comesin a few different colors but the original looks very very light but blends beautifully. I'd gt a demnstration from the counter person about all the magic things it can do. Love that product. If you're in S.F., go see Alexis Simonsen at Saks and have her show it to you. She's the makeup artist at YSL.
Laura Proctor (proctor) Wed 17 Oct 01 15:17
Ooh, Gash is one of my favorite lipstick colors. Cynthia, I seem to recall reading in "The Eyebrow" that there's a way to find your arch with a lip pencil, similar to the way you find the starting and ending points of the brow. Frankly, I find the method you describe here and in "The Beauty Workbook" a bit confusing; how can you tell with your fingers where the arch should be?
Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 17 Oct 01 23:57
Welcome back Cynthia! How was the panel discussion? Can you tell us about it? Anything interesting we're dying to find out about? So, let's see, where was I...oh yes, you had just delivered the good news that hair pieces were back, causing me to run to my checkbook and start calculating. I was glancing through the book and, in the hair section, came upon the parts where you describe hair power tools and non-power tools. Power tools include Blow Dryers, Hot Rollers, Steam Rollers, and Curling Irons. No suprises there. But in the Non-Power Tools you describe everything from bobby pins, to various types of brushes, ditto combs and rollers, all kinds of clips and elastics. Amazingly inclusive. And then I thought, I wonder how many of your readers have never encountered a bobby pin or a hairpin. Any idea? Also, let's look at the Hair-Raising Claims: - Expensive hair products are better than cheaper ones - Over-the-counter hair products encourage hair growth - Every type of hair needs conditioning - Hair has to squeak to be really clean - I must brush my hair 100 strokes every night - Drugstore hair color is not as good as salon color Will you debunk as appropriate, please?
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Thu 18 Oct 01 05:35
Let's do these one at a time: I a in agreement with Paula Begoun who is a terrific source and teacher, by the way,that products do not have to be expensive to be trrific. Usually, the products you see in a drug store vs. the ones your hairdresser is seling (and making a 40 percent commission on, by the way) have had the same careful lab r and d behind them Many of the products re even owned by the same companies. The difference: a designer name, maybe a few more stablilizers in the drug store brand, a fancier bottle and the imprimateur of your hairdresser. (Mine, the faous Ron, uses drug store color on some of his clients when he can't find a color he wants out of his professional stuff; he says that done right, ie. if you follow package directions, no difference). But, a shampoo is a shampoo is a shampoo; the same with conditioners. They all have ths same ingredients in them and any fancy stuff like Vitamin E or whatever, is so slight, it is just a comeon which adds cost to what is just detergent, degreaser and conditioner. So, if you find a fairly good product (and I'm not talking really detergeant shampoos like Prell that strip color and strip natural oils if you use them too much) in a drug store, use it. I do't think that any OTC product encourages hair growth. Those are prescription drugs like Minoxidil which have helped men who have male pattern baldness. There are alopecias that affect women with either permanent or teporary hair loss (sometiems, ALL hair -- in fact, Mike Nichols has the kind of permanent baldness where he wears a full-head wig and fake eyebrows) where prescription products will help with hair regrowth. But the only thing most of us can do as we age and we find that some kinds of drugs we have to take will thin our hair, is to get it cut short, tint it, wear hair pieces or wigs. As for brushing your hair 100 strokes a night. Twenty five with a gentle-bristle brush will do. For women with long silky hair, vigorous brushing will only damage the cuticle which is the protective sheath of keratin scales (under a microscope, it looks like shingles on a roof) and cause split ends and breakage. On curly and kinky hair, where the hair is inherently weak every time it makes a curve, it will cause breakage; and for people with really oily scalp (and it is the scalp, not the hair that pumps out oil -- hair, by the time it reaches to surface of the skin is quite dead), it will stimulate oil glands to pump out even more. The best hair care is to be gentle with your hair. Wash it every 2-3 days; use a conditioner to rinse your hair out every other day if you're used to washing your hair every day; use a towel to squeeze the moisture out of it; do not rub vigorously. use protective stylers that will coat the hair to keep the dryer heat from drying it out and futher damaging it. Hair is basically a fiber -- a collection of dead protein which "grows" about six inches a year. Hair does not have to squeak to be clean. Because water is so different from city to city. Depending upon the type of water in your city, clean hair, rinsed clear of product may or may NOT squeak. That's one of those old wives' tales. As for using a conditioner. To get your comb through your hair, you should use some type if rinse, either a spray-in or a traditional conditioner. A little dab'll do ya. There is a lot of oil in those conditioners to make it slick and to make your hair easier to comb. rinse it out really well or wait until you're ready to style and spray in something like Paul Mitchell texturizing spray or something from the Graham Webb or Charles Worthington lines. Or even use our family favorite here: Frederic Fekkai's Apple Vinegar rinse. It will not deposit a lot of unuseful grease in the hair and it will make it appear very shiny when you dry it. Or: go directly to the source. If you're a brunette, regular apple cider vinegar is an excellent shine-producing, detangler; lemon juice works for blondes. But it will change your color if you go out in the sun with it.
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Thu 18 Oct 01 05:37
My favorite hair products are: Garren's, the hair dresser from Bendel's; Lazartigue (which can get very very expensive) and some old G raham Webb stuff and Vidal Sassoon's black label line. I love the shampoo and the conditioner. It works really well in San Franisco water.
special occasions and toenails (vard) Thu 18 Oct 01 05:54
I have to wash my hair every day or my scalp feels all crawly. Plus I use a fair amount of "product." But the Bumble & bumble blue shampoo is good for getting the gunk residue out, and probably somewhat less drying / stripping than plain old Neutrogena (although I love that too, on occasions when I need it). Also, I work out five days a week and my hair gets all sweaty. Am I really damaging it by washing it every day? My favorite two hair products, which I would have trouble living without, are Sebastian Potion #7 and John Frieda Secret Weapon. The latter is a drugstore product and the former can be bought in many drugstores. How is a shopper to know which drugstore brand names really are internationally well known hairdresser names (Frieda, Sassoon), and which are just artifacts of drugstore hair product advertising?
special occasions and toenails (vard) Thu 18 Oct 01 05:55
Also, what is tea tree oil and is it really good for so many different skin and hair purposes?
Da Beauty Queen (cynthiar) Thu 18 Oct 01 06:11
Tea Tree oil seems to be a good anti-bacerial and anti-abrasive. I use it on burns and cuts. But I think for a while there it was the flavor of the month. And not all that effective in hair products. Just a fad. There are realy good OTC products for specific problems like the frizzies, etc and John Frida's produts are some of the bset on the market. It's not all hype. They really work. Friz-Ease or however you spell it, is a terrific product; a lot of bang for the buck. When your hair frizzes, it probaby means that the cutcile has been disturbed, broken or damaged in some way And, if your hair is very curly or like African American hair, tends to kink and frizz, then every time it bends, it has an inherent weakness in it and probability that it will break. Don't ask me why; that's just part of the gnetic code of curly hair. The healthiest hair is the one in which the cuticle is undisturbed so when you see those gorgeous Asian women with their chest-length, shiny, straight hair that is so thick and luxurious looking, THAT is hair with an undisturbed cuticle. To find what works for you: It's mostly trial and error. YOur hair dresser is into selling the product that is sold at his/her salon because they get a commission. However: if they're any good and they know you don't want to spend an arm and a leg on product, they should be able to recommend a drug store product that helps. Or get Paula Begoun's book about hair products . . . or buy the small sizes of things and try them for a week and see waht they do to your hair. Don't believe all the hype. And don't buy a product because they advertise that there is some kind of AHA or vitamin or rare tree toad in it or something. Read the label and you'll see that that ingredient is waaaaaay down on the list which means it's just window dressing and not effective at all.
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