inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #26 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Fri 9 Nov 01 09:23
    
I address it, and I undress it I guess: Shame. that's the biggest
problem people face. Shame of sex in general, of our particular
desires, of wanting to engage in activities we've been led to believe
are "unnatural" or "perverted." Shame about being attracted to people
other than our main partner, having been told if we really really loved
him or her we would never want anyone else sexually. Shame about our
bodies. Shame about desire towards "inappropriate" people, whether
because of their t age or gender or ethnicity. Even people who think of
themselves as liberated, and are to a certain extent, find that when
they want to act on desire shame rears its ugly head, usually disguised
as something else, like: I shouldn't fall in love right now; I
shouldn't sleep with someone I don't love; I shouldn't take the time
away from my kids/school/profession. Shame permeates every aspect of
our sex lives.While all kinds of taboos can enhance sex, I don't think
that shame ever does.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #27 of 54: Berliner (captward) Fri 9 Nov 01 10:37
    
I've got about 15 ex-girlfriends who need that sermon. Too bad I don't
buy them Christmas presents. 
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #28 of 54: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 9 Nov 01 14:26
    

> Shame permeates every aspect of
>  our sex lives.While all kinds of taboos can enhance sex, I don't think
>  that shame ever does.

I've been pondering that, Marcy, and I'm not sure I'd agree.

For example: People sometimes have sex in public places because there's
an added element of excitement at the prospect of getting caught doing it.
Getting caught would be embarrassing and it would be shameful. And that
shame is being used to heighten the sexual experience.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #29 of 54: Rip Van Winkle (keta) Fri 9 Nov 01 16:03
    
I wonder if Marcy means self-shame.  Resisting showing up at your own
party.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #30 of 54: JaNell (goldennokomis) Fri 9 Nov 01 17:47
    
Dr. Ruth actually said "women don't care as much
about having orgasms as do men"?

Come again?
Pun intended.

My limited experience has been that, after it's been established that
you will have sex with a man, he's free to go back to things he's more
interested in. Whereas I, and the women I talk to about such things,
are the frustrated ones...
And then you turn thirty and things really rev up.
I fantasize more now than ever before...
Men, though...
I think Robert Heinlein was more on the mark when, in "to Sail Beyond
the Sunset", I believe, he had a female charector say something like
"if we (women) didn't just plain lead them by the hand, the human race
would die out."
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #31 of 54: just got a fistful of pink peppercorns (jillmaxi) Sat 10 Nov 01 10:21
    
indeed.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #32 of 54: flying jenny (jenslobodin) Sat 10 Nov 01 11:46
    
I too am a "woman of a certain age", <castle>, and there are
definitely some differences in how I respond, sexually. But, not nearly
as many nor as profoundly as I'd been led to expect. 

My behaviour changed long ago, well before these hormones began to
change my life in truly drastic ways. 
I enjoyed a wonderful time of sexual freedom when I was a young woman,
and then began to take other's feelings more into consideration, as
well as know myself better and understand my own emotional attachments.
These two factors modified my behaviour to a great degree.  

I fantasize just as much as ever (and, yes, some of the old ones don't
do it anymore), but don't act out the fantasies as often with others.
Mostly because I am more and more protective of my time and with whom I
keep company. But, I can definitely be aroused, hormones or not. 

BTW, I have been assured by many women that this period of being less
interested in sex which some experience passes - one comes through it
in time and out into new day. Or night. 

<29> sounds right, about the shame issue. People are turned on by
flouting taboos, but true shame about one's body, sexuality, fantasies
is a shame. It's harmful amd hurtful. 

Anyhow, back to the interview...
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #33 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Sat 10 Nov 01 14:19
    
Yes, exactly. The shame that one might feel about "being caught"
having sex in public is way different than the shame women of some
ethnicities are made to experience about not being a virgin on their
wedding night. The former isn't really shame, or maybe it's that the
latter is "self shame" as someone said. I wish I could articulate this
better; I will think on it and hopefully come back with some more about
it later.

The Dr. Ruth allusion  about women's and men's feelings around orgasm
was something I read quoted in a review of a book she wrote on erotic
art; this was several years ago. I believe she said it less blatantly;
it was more like, women need cuddling and affection more, whereas men
are more focussed on having a climax. There's truth in every
stereotype, and some truth in this one, but perpetuating this as if
it's inevitable is damaging to both men and women.

The women here who are talking about how sexuality changes with age:
exactly what age are we talking about? Someone mentioned 30, which to
my mind is the first blush of youth! At 55, women who speak of 30 or 40
as if it's "old" sound so deluded to me--like, poor babies, if you
only knew what's a-comin! And yet, my 83 yo mother keeps telling me
that I'm young, and when I protest I'm sure she sees me as hopelessly
deluded too.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #34 of 54: Big wet kissey flakes of (goldennokomis) Sat 10 Nov 01 14:30
    
I'm 37, and very happy to be.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #35 of 54: flying jenny (jenslobodin) Sat 10 Nov 01 16:35
    
Good. You should be. 
_I_ was talking about menopause, of course, as I assumed was <castle>.
I am 52, and not UNhappy to be, especially given the alternative. 
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #36 of 54: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 11 Nov 01 00:36
    

Well, actually, I wasn't talking about menopause, although I suppose
that's playing a role here, too.

I feel less and less sexy because I've gained an enormous amount of weight
in the last few years.  I don't see myself as sexy, and I don't feel that
people respond to me as if I were; I assume it's my weight.  On the other
hand, I feel better about myself and more comfortable about myself than I
ever have before, and care less than ever before about what people think
of me.  

Also, I'm on anti-depressants, which have just about killed my sex drive,
and I suppose that plays a role in my not feeling very sexy, and in
fantasizing.  I just can't get interested.

In fact, from this sexually-deadened point of view, I sometimes think in
amazement about how much time and energy I once spent in one way or
another pursuing sex or obsessing about sex or fantasizing about sex and I
wonder how I ever had any time for anything else.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #37 of 54: Big wet kissey flakes of (goldennokomis) Sun 11 Nov 01 08:26
    
Actually, if it's not under the "too much information" category, I
have been through menopause. And back. It was chemically induced as
part of treatment for endimetriosis; I got shots for six months. I was,
I guess, about 27 at the time, and it was hell. Forty pounds on in six
months. I aged so much, and didn't get back to myself until I got
pregnant about five years later.

Strangely, my mother was being chemically brought out of menopause at
the same time...

We didn't visit much.

Linda~ anti-depressants will do that. I've had much better results
from St. John's Wort myself, but you have to go with what works. 
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #38 of 54: M. J. Rose (anewanais) Sun 11 Nov 01 10:55
    
So Marcy - what haven't we asked that you want to talk about?? 
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #39 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Sun 11 Nov 01 11:03
    
I know another young woman who went thru menopause at an early age;
she and I talked all the time about it. In fact, she was easier to talk
to than women my age, bc the latter are of course associating
menopause w/ aging, which can depress them;  some women even try to
hide it so nobody will know they're "over the hill." 

Linda, antidepressants will do that to you. I have a question, tho:
you don't think about sex so much, or desire it out of thin air--but
have you tried actually engaging in sex (partnered) despite a lack of
desire? Because I found that once I got going, the desire kicked in.
Orgasm was still harder to reach, but I still had a damn good time (hm,
Dr. Ruth is right???)

I've been mulling over the shame thing all night and morning. And
still don't have a clear conclusion. In my personal experience, I've
been made to feel ashamed of certain sex practices while younger, and
it didn't get in my way as an adult. Conversely, some practices, when I
first tried them, brought a wave of shame, seemingly from nowhere.

Jack Morin in THE EROTIC MIND (highly recommended) came up with this
equation: Atrraction + Obstacles = Arousal. He points out that
sometimes obstacles heighten arousal, but sometimes they can distract.
I consider things like adultery, no access to a bed, neighbors peeking
thru the curtains, for instance, to be obstacles that more likely
enhance rather than distract from arousal. But shame about one's body,
or about showing someone what you like, no, that  certainly interferes
with sex.  Anyone have any other thoughts on this?
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #40 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Sun 11 Nov 01 11:04
    
Melisse slipped in.

As I said, I want to talk about sexual shame. This, of course, doesn't
exactly fit into the format of me being interviewed about my book--but
I'm more interested in learning more than in touting my product!
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #41 of 54: Lena M. Diethelm (lendie) Sun 11 Nov 01 22:34
    

What do you wish you'd said about sexual shame in yoiur book?
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #42 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Mon 12 Nov 01 03:21
    
I guess, now that I'm finding there is so much more to say, that I'd
just gone into it a little more thoroughly. But, the book isn't meant
to be a heavy psychological analysis, so what I did say is probably
enough. In fact, everything about the book itself is pretty much a
refutation of sexual shame.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #43 of 54: M. J. Rose (anewanais) Tue 13 Nov 01 13:56
    
What sex books haven't been written that should be? What aren't we
willing to talk about that we should be? I'm interested in the secrets
of sex - which is in itself so secretive to start with.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #44 of 54: flying jenny (jenslobodin) Tue 13 Nov 01 18:22
    
Very sorry for the assumption, <castle>. 
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #45 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Tue 13 Nov 01 22:42
    
Re #43: Well, one thing I think people rarely talk about honestly is
their fantasies.  The down and dirty, shameful, raunchy, bizarre stuff
that is so revealing. 

Another thing we don't want to look at is the sexual tension within
the family. Children's and teen sexuality in general: we try to pretend
it doesn't exist and if it does, then to stomp it out: a problem to be
solved. 

These are scary things to look at and talk about, and sometimes I'm
not even sure it would be a good idea to get them out in the open; at
least, I'm not willing to go first! But it's those issues that we
repress and deny that contribute to some of our deepest social
problems.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #46 of 54: Linda Castellani (castle) Tue 13 Nov 01 23:08
    

I want to know more about the book and what's in it!  For example, since I
don't have a copy, what's in the table of contents?
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #47 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Wed 14 Nov 01 13:54
    
The book is divided into five main sections: Know Thyself; Show
Thyself; Be Thyself; Be Thyselves; and And Beyond.each section has
three chapters, to wit: 

Sexploration: Getting to Know Your Sexy Self
Overcoming Embarrasment and Shame
A Little Help (toys and sexual aids)
Exposure = Comfort
Learning to Talk About Sex
The Mating Game: People are Animals
Coffee, Tea or Herbs? ( varieties of sexual relationships)
The Five Components of Great Sex
The Senses
Talking Dirty
Role and Fantasy Play with Partners
Get out of Bed!
Steppin' Out (sex clubs and other sexual entertainment)
Beyond the ABCs
Experience Yourself

Then there's a short epilogue, a resource list and bibliography, and
an index.
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #48 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Wed 14 Nov 01 13:55
    
Oops--I forgot the Introduction: How I Went from Clueless to Clued-In
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #49 of 54: Dr. Leda Horticulture (leroy) Wed 14 Nov 01 14:15
    

What about Sex for the Jaded?
  
inkwell.vue.129 : Marcy Sheiner: Sex for the Clueless
permalink #50 of 54: Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Thu 15 Nov 01 14:13
    
That won't sell; in fact, that's the title of my personal diary.
  

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