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inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #51 of 59: Do you bite your thumb at (yeoman) Thu 24 Jan 02 13:58
Ooh!  Ooh!  I want to ask a question!

In post <47>, you seem to be arguing an interesting alternative to a
traditional view of history.  The traditional view seems to be that
'we've been raising ourselves up from the mud, improving our lot
constantly from the [totalitarian] agricultural revolution to the
present day'.  In your post <47>, as well as in _Story_ and _Ishmael_
you seem to be arguing an opposite kind of implacability, that since
the totalitarian agricultural revolution, the growth of that 'Taker'
culture has spread without cease.

My question is, has the growth of Taker culture been building
consistently to this day?  Haven't there been a number of important
pauses in that growth?

For example:  Nordics sack Rome, throwing the Roman Empire into a
tizzy and causing a withdrawal of troops abroad, leading to eventual
collapse of an empire that was spreading the Taker message far and
wide.  Pueblos returned to a 'Leaver' society after horses are
introduced, abandoning a major city.  The Reconstruction.  Militant
ecology movements, the Chiapas collectives.

Are these major checks to the growth of the Taker civilization, or
mere hiccups?  If so, what would be a major check?  What might the
beginnings of a major alternative movement look like?

If you send me an email, I'll send you a box of cookies.
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #52 of 59: Jay Kinney (jay) Thu 24 Jan 02 14:24
Hi Daniel,

Pardon my absence for the last few days. I've been grappling with my own 
book deadline (Feb. 1st) and just about the only way I could force myself 
to the task at hand was to ignore the Internet as much as possible. ;-)

To play the devil's advocate for a moment, I note that you say that "the 
task I've set myself is to show people that the chaos and catastrophe that we're 
experiencing (from the dissolution of the nuclear family to the phenomenon 
of children plotting to commit wholesale murder) is not just a bad patch 
we have to put up with until a good patch comes along. This is something 
we've been building toward for thousands of years..."

I guess I wonder whether it is possible to really see where the human race 
is at at any given moment. Isn't it likely that the Millenial 
apocalypticism of the year 1000 or of the Plague Years (and I should 
double-check to make sure those weren't, in fact, the same time!) saw 
things as pretty dire. Yet life has continued and even improved in some 
respects. I do know that I expected revolution and collapse in the early 
'70s, but was rudely surprised that neither happened. 
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #53 of 59: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 24 Jan 02 14:24
E-mail from St Louis Scott:


You mentioned that when you first started with the idea's of Ishamel you
wrote "The book of the nahash" and then "The book of the damned" and then
"Another story to be in". You wrote a book called "Dreamer"  before them
and at some time a kids book.

I know you can get the " The book of the damned on,, but what
about the other ones I mentioned , are you ever going to reissue them,
and in "Providence you mentioned 6 parts, I only count 3, " The book of
the damned, "The book of nahash," and Another story to be in, which you
state was the 6th.

Can you please correct me if Im mixed up here and explain to me on the
versions, and if we can exspect to see them released again.

We have spoken before, I emailed you about Jeffery, Im from St Louis,
where you went to college.

I cant wait for "The holy" to come out.

I look around at some of these questions from people about TMWGY, and
they ask about the ending, you should just tell them read Ishmael and
TSOB, MI, and BC and then they will understand that the ending would have
been obvious. ( hee hee ).

St Louis Scott
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #54 of 59: Daniel Quinn (danielquinn) Fri 25 Jan 02 07:31
Hi Benjamin--

The advance of Taker culture has of course not been without pauses and
setbacks (but the sack of Rome isn't an example, since it was sacked
by Takers, for whom it was an advance). 

Practicing agriculture (even totalitarian agriculture) doesn't make
you a Taker. Most of the extant Leavers in the world today are
agriculturalists (as were the Plains Indians, who resumed the
hunting-gathering life when the Spanish introduced horses to the
region). What characterizes Takers is not agriculture but rather a set
of beliefs that have spurred them to overrun the world: the belief that
there is one right way for people to live; the belief that we Takers
have that one right way; and the belief that everyone in the world
should be made to embrace that one right way.

What would be a major check to the growth of the Taker empire? For the
answer to that see Beyond Civilization.
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #55 of 59: Daniel Quinn (danielquinn) Fri 25 Jan 02 07:39
Jay, I'm looking at a trend that is thousands of years old (not 50
years old as in Susan Faludi's Stiffed or 400 years old as in the
Unabomber's rant about the Industrial Revolution), and I began looking
at it more than 20 years before the millennial doomsayers came along.

To see the constant enlargement of our disastrous footprint on the
planet, have a look at these reports:

- Smithsonian Researchers Show Amazonian Deforestation Accelerating
- Extinction Rate Across The Globe Reaches Historical Proportions
- Evolutionary "Speed Limit" Governs How Quickly Life Bounces Back
Extinction; Biodiversity Recovers More Slowly Than Thought
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #56 of 59: Daniel Quinn (danielquinn) Fri 25 Jan 02 07:54
Hi Scott--

The versions were MAN AND ALIEN, THE GENESIS TRANSCRIPT (two versions
STORY TO BE IN (two versions with this title), and ISHMAEL. 

"The Tales of Adam," currently available only in audio, are from THE
BOOK OF NAHASH but are under contract to be published someday (I've got
so many books backed up in the pipeline that it's hard to say when).
MAN AND ALIEN and one version of THE GENESIS TRANSCRIPT no longer
exist, and the publication of ISHMAEL made ANOTHER STORY TO BE IN
redundant. I don't plan to reissue DREAMER, though it's thinkable. The
children's book you're thinking of is probably THE BOY WHO ATE THE BUS,
and that too is under contract to be republished.

If the ending of TMWGY doesn't work for someone, you can't really say,
"Well, you need to read this other book." It has to stand on its own
(and the ending does apparently work for most readers. But thanks for
the thought!
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #57 of 59: Linda Castellani (castle) Fri 25 Jan 02 10:49

I want to thank both Daniel and Jay for such a terrific interview.  Folks, 
if you haven't seen this book, it's truly thought-provoking.

We have enjoyed having you.  Please feel free to stick around and continue 
for as long as you like.
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #58 of 59: Jay Kinney (jay) Sat 26 Jan 02 15:20
Thanks, Linda. And thank *you*, Daniel. It was fun picking your brains. 
;-)  Now back to my deadline...  heh.
inkwell.vue.135 : Daniel Quinn: The Man Who Grew Young
permalink #59 of 59: Daniel Quinn (danielquinn) Sat 26 Jan 02 16:43
Thanks, Linda & Jay--

It was fun, and I got a lot of interesting questions and comments. And
good luck, Jay, in meeting your deadline. The only thing worse than
having a deadline is not having one. :-

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