inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #351 of 376: from DIVINE MS M (tnf) Wed 24 Jul 02 14:06
    

MS M again:

Crosby has shown us (as have so many others) that it's just as possible to do
top notch work from domestic bliss as it is from the tortured depths of
misery- I look forward to seeing what Stills has for us...
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #352 of 376: Chris Carroll (marvy) Wed 24 Jul 02 20:19
    
Uh, I think maybe you're referring to Neil Young and the Shocking Pinks. My
vote for worst Neil album (although it did contain "Kinda Fonda Wanda" which
was funny in a novelty song sort of way).
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #353 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Thu 25 Jul 02 05:52
    
The DIVINE MS M offered:

>One observation I made (again) at the 2/02 Grand Rapids show is how
>different Neil's audience seems to be from the people who turn out
>for CSN without him, or for CPR or any of the guys alone.  At the
>risk of starting a brawl here, I will comment that having seen
>several different configurations, Neil sure seems to bring out the
>drunks, yodelers and loudmouths.

You know, I was fortunate to see CSN a couple of times last summer,
and then CSNY four times during the 02 tour and I couldn't quite
describe what it was that was so different. Divine does it perfectly
above.

It was clear who the Neil fans were, clearer that they made up the
majority of the audience, and clearer still that they didn't really
care much for CSN, and least not without Y.

I know I got to see them do Carry Me (God that song just owns me) a
couple of times. The four guys playing acoustics, Crosby's lyrics and
voice, wow, I mean it was just a highlight for me.

But for the Neil fans... both times there were chowder heads screaming
for Neil. If the song itself hadn't been so beautiful and if I hadn't
been enjoying myself so much, I can almost guarantee you the world have
two fewer Neil Young fans today.


>I've seen some messed-up people at concerts, but the 2/02 show
>treated us to the drunkest, foulest people I've ever seen at a live
>show (next to us, unfortunately) who screamed for Neil the whole
>time. I made the same observation about the loudmouths at the last
>Neil solo show I saw. My companion for all of these shows calls >them
the "whooo-oooo people". 

Totally and sadly agreed.

In, errr Bland Rapids, there was a girl one row behind us, complete in
leather pants and all the glamor-girl-wanna-be accoutrements --
covered in puke. She'd hurled all over herself.

And get this -- this was in the section reserved for radio, press and
other media types.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #354 of 376: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Thu 25 Jul 02 06:53
    
Yikes.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #355 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Thu 25 Jul 02 07:23
    
I've seen Neil Young in concert more than 30 times since 1973, and
CSN, C&N and the C,S,N solo roughly 50 times over that same period. It
wasn't until the '90s that I noticed a personality shift in their
audiences. I thought it might be the "grunge crowd" factor, but lately
Neil also seems to bring out the "motorcycle mamas" and "two
keg-a-night dudes." It depends a lot on whether Neil has a band or is
on his own. His '92 and '99 solo acoustic tours brought our mostly fans
who were there to hear the likes of "Tell Me Why" and "Old Man." But
when Neil's got a band behind him ... look out for screams for
"HURRICANE!," whiskey flasks and flying hurl!   
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #356 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Thu 25 Jul 02 07:30
    
Oh yeah baby, new pseud "Whiskey flasks and flying Hurl!"
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #357 of 376: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Thu 25 Jul 02 10:05
    
Well, don't go dissin' Hurricane.:-)
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #358 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Thu 25 Jul 02 18:05
    
No "Hurricane" diss intended, Mary ... ;-) It's a cool song, though I
wouldn't rank it in my Top Ten NY songs ... including "Ambulance
Blues," "Tell Me Why," "Dangerbird," "Cowgirl In the Sand," "Ordinary
People," "Ride My Llama," "When You Dance (I Can Really Love)," "New
Mama," "For the Turnstiles," "Lookout For My Love" ... a list that is
forever changing ...
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #359 of 376: Chris Carroll (marvy) Thu 25 Jul 02 18:20
    
Ambulance Blues! My all time fave. Good call.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #360 of 376: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Thu 25 Jul 02 20:16
    
Well, one of the reasons I'm so fond of "Hurricane" is that back in the
early '80s when we all used to go see Jerry at the Keystone Palo Alto
they played it for between-set music a lot, REALLY loud, and we used to
lounge under the stage (odd setup) and literally absorb the vibrations.

And, for that matter, I can't get through "Long May You Run" without
getting teary, either. Especially since the version they did at the
Bill Graham memorial, during which there probably wasn't a dry eye
in Golden Gate Park.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #361 of 376: David Gans (tnf) Thu 25 Jul 02 22:19
    

From DIVINE MS M, who is signing up for the WELL and will soon be posting for
herself.



To Zimmer et al:

Wow, I forgot about the Shocking Pinks. Probably haunts Neil in his sleep...

You know, as far as the Neil fans go, I agree, Dave. The last time we saw
CSN, we all took our kids. No chance of me taking my daughter to a show with
Neil in it, sorry.

I don't know when I became a dinosaur, but it used to be cool to be quiet,
respectful, mellow (high- <grin>). I don't know when the angry, nihilistic
drink-till-you-puke kids took over, but they're definitely out there, and
they love Neil. I could have done without the drunk guy attempting to dance
and falling on me- again, and again- and then getting mad because the $86
seat I paid for was in his way.  As for the moto-mamas, I've always found
that the bikers tend not only to behave themselves out in public, but toJlend
a hand with maintaining order, in most settings.JGuess you can't expect
people to act right in a monument to Christian Reformed soap- but it's all
over, from what you say.

The screaming during the acoustic numbers was just rude, and so distracting!
All I wanted to do was HEAR, and the knuckleheads made that difficult. It's
embarassing. I don't think Neil's fans have a glimmer of a clue who the rest
of his band are...

FYI, Dave,Jthis is such a small pond that I believe I know who the drunk
chick was. Is there anything hotter than a tarted-up blithering drunk woman
wearing her own brool? Lovely. When those CRCJkids fall, they fall HARD. They
learn how to be quiet, but nobody teaches them how to drink, I guess.

Thanks for reminding me about Carry Me- and also Ambulance Blues. Love them
both, and Cowgirl just shoots me right back through the time tunnel every
time I hear it. Weren't the 70s a nice time to be young?

I heard Graham on Rockline last night, and it takes me back to my original
query, Dave (kind of). Shakey doesn't paint a pretty picture, though I'd have
to say Neil's made an adjustment to the world that works- for him. We've all
heard about Crosby's various struggles- but you've got to hand it to him for
pulling it out. Amazing comeback... blows me away every time I think
aboutJhow tough he must be, and his humor shines through in everything he
says. Love a man withJa twinkle in his eye.JJNash has always seemed like a
happy, serene, well-adjusted man. So what would you say about Stills? And
would you say that my impressions are correct? How have they all changed and
evolved- or devolved- in the years you've known them?

Come on with it, Dave- and whatever else you'd add. Thanks.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #362 of 376: He's filling empty space with the substance of our lives (sd) Fri 26 Jul 02 04:46
    
I've always found
 that the bikers tend not only to behave themselves out in public, but
toJlend
 a hand with maintaining order, in most settings.

This is where you and Jagger would have agreed at one point.

seriously, i ended up in the middle of a ton of MC folk at the Other Ones
with my young teenaged daughter. they were the best showbuddies i've had iin
a long time. seemed like they were there for the music (esp hot tuna) or
something.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #363 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Fri 26 Jul 02 08:40
    
Divine Ms. M asks: 
>So what would you say about Stills? And would you say that my
impressions are correct? How have they all changed and evolved- or
devolved- in the years you've known them?

I must admit what first drew me to Stills as a listener was the
perceived pain and suffering in many of his songs (from "Helplessly
Hoping" and "Suite: Judy Blue Eyes" to "So Begins the Task" and
"Colorado" to "I Give, You Give Blind" and "Run From Tears"). The man
behind those songs certainly has had his moments of sadness. But the
Stills I have gotten to know over the past 20 years seems more
restless than sad. He's constantly searching. He also likes to laugh
... a lot ... and remains proud of his music (even though his
songwriting output have lost steam in recent years). So I think your
impressions of him are only partially correct, IMHO.


Croz is like a wise owl. He's survived so much, yet is still so vital
-- as a man and a creative being. Amazing. Even when he was beaten
down(when I first met him 20 something years ago), the fire was still
there.

Nash, of course, is like a rock, a gentle rock. Well-adjusted? Serene?
I guess those words could apply. But he can get mad and does impulsive
things just like everyone else. I could listen to Nash tell stories
for hours.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #364 of 376: Andrea McKillop (aka Divine Ms. M) (divinea) Fri 26 Jul 02 22:12
    
I figured that somebody would point out that very notable exception to
the rule...there's a story about that in Dave's book, if memory
serves...

The pain and suffering in the work can be more-or less- reflective of
somebody's state of mind. Sometimes, it's just that moment and not some
greater world view. I'd say Stills has a great deal to be proud of.
I'm also always glad to know that there are some of us that are still
searching.

Croz's humanity and vitality shine through in whatever I've seen.
Seeing him in person, it radiates. 

I've gathered that Nash is a good conversationalist- he sure gives
good interview, always seeming acute. Maybe you could get him to do a
longer thing here, Dave- or perhaps that's another book.

What are you thinking of doing next, Dave? Or are you still
recuperating?

And did I mention how much I enjoyed the book?

One other brief question, Dave. A couple of rounds back, you mentioned
that this may be the last time around the wheel for CSNY. Any
particular reason that you said so, or is it more of the same old
hmmmmm?
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #365 of 376: an angry consumer (sd) Sat 27 Jul 02 08:42
    
welcome to the well, andrea!
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #366 of 376: Andrea McKillop (divinea) Sat 27 Jul 02 08:46
    
Thanks, angry c...
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #367 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Sun 28 Jul 02 07:45
    
>What are you thinking of doing next, Dave? Or are you still
recuperating?

Am not sure what you mean by "recuperating." From writing about
CSN(&Y)? There was never a time when that felt like a trial.

As for what's next ... if Joni Mitchell remains elusive ... I really
don't know. Nash and Stills supposedly both have autobiograhpies well
underway.  With some more time (hard to find these days), I may merge
my love of baseball and music into something. We shall see.

>A couple of rounds back, you mentioned that this may be the last time
around the wheel for CSNY. Any particular reason that you said so, or
is it more of the same old hmmmmm?

CSNY 2K2 just felt like a finale to me ... not based on anything other
than that. I could be wrong. The aging of rock and roll is happening
before our eyes. There's no road map to follow. 
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #368 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Sun 28 Jul 02 07:46
    
>And did I mention how much I enjoyed the book?

Thanks very much, Andrea. 

Time for Sunday chores ...
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #369 of 376: Andrea McKillop (divinea) Sun 28 Jul 02 08:59
    
>Am not sure what you mean by "recuperating." From writing about
CSN(&Y)? There was never a time when that felt like a trial.

Oops, that's not what I meant to suggest, Dave. I just always need R &
R between projects, so that's what I refer to ....more rejuvenation
than recuperation, used the wrong word. A sabbatical, if you will. The
ones after a good project are the sweetest.

>CSNY 2K2 just felt like a finale to me... 
Interesting that you say that. About five minutes into the show, my
companion turned to me and commented that we'd better enjoy it, because
it sure felt like the last time we'd see it ("it" being all four of
them, together).

I'd love to see you do the Joni book. It needs doing.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #370 of 376: Dan Marsh (dam) Tue 30 Jul 02 07:40
    
Andrea, welcome and forgive me for asking:

what do you do?

I am assuming you are a writer based on your "r & r between projects"
comment.  I hope I asked this the right way, but again, welcome to the well!
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #371 of 376: Andrea McKillop (divinea) Tue 30 Jul 02 15:05
    
Hmmm....can't think how there could be a wrong way, and ask away :-).

Yes, I write. Spent this year working on a thesis-level project that
has morphed into a book. Yippee- finally! It's something I've been
wanting to do for years.

I was referring more to my paid work, though, as a project manager.

And thanks for the welcome, Dan- it's all a little intimidating, but I
have felt really welcome because of folks like you.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #372 of 376: Andrea McKillop (divinea) Tue 30 Jul 02 15:07
    
Oops.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #373 of 376: Dan Marsh (dam) Wed 31 Jul 02 05:48
    
glad to have you around!
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #374 of 376: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Sun 11 Aug 02 16:12
    
Turned on Channel 9 last night and there was Henry Diltz! Offering
signed copies of the Morrison Hotel photo as pledge prizes (offering
Dave's book as a pledge prize also!). All the pledge fu interspersed
between bits of "Under the Covers," a documentary on his work. Which
had some really lovely stuff in it.

Probably coming soon to a PBS station near you!
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #375 of 376: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 11 Aug 02 18:19
    

Actually, Henry Diltz is coming to an inkwell.vue near you and his 
terrific DVD, Under the Covers is available to WELL members simply by 
being among the first three people to send your request to 
inkwell-hosts@well.com, along with an address where we can mail it to you.

Accepting one of his DVDs come with a price tag, though:  you have to 
agree to watch it and then come and participate in the discussion.

Here's how terrific this DVD is:

When I got a copy, I came home that night about 11:30 and watched it and 
then got up the next morning and watched it again and then started 
waylaying people to show it to, somewhat like the Ancient Mariner.

I love this DVD, and it is so well-done that everything seems like it's  
happening right now and you get to watch!
  

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