inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #26 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Sun 5 Jan 03 12:28
    
Jack says he's not going to post till tomorrow morning so if anyone
else has questions, now is a good time to ask them....
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #27 of 126: Martha Soukup (soukup) Sun 5 Jan 03 13:17
    
Well, speaking of that, here's e-mail from Michael Kelly:

Hello again Ellen,

Thanks for addressing my first question.  Thanks,
as well, for allowing us a peek into your life and work.
I certainly appreciate the time you are taking to answer
these questions.

Thank you!

On to the next question:  I read a lot in the small and independent
press.  A lot of what I read is average to dreadful.  But there seems
(to me anyway) to be a marked improvement in the small press offerings
the last few years.  Is this a direct result of the shrinking genre
mid-list
writer?  Many small press writers (folks like Charlee Jacob and Paul Finch)
are excellent wordsmiths who should, at the very least, garner a little
more
attention for their fiction.

What are your general impressions of today's small and independent press?
Is it any better or worse than it was five or ten years ago?

-Michael
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #28 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Sun 5 Jan 03 15:38
    
Michael,
That's a huge topic that I can only bite off pieces of right here.
Also, my opinions on it shift constantly as things change in the
publishing world. 

Since I rarely read novels and really can only respond with regard to
my reaction to short story publishing in the small press. There were
more original anthologies and collections with some original stories
published during 2002 than in the last few years put together.
Some were excellent, most were ok, and a few terrible. 

There are a few small press publishers who are producing consistently
professional design and quality of content. 

I'm not sure I'd call Cemetery Dance Publications and Subterranean
Press "small press" anymore as their print runs rival those of the "big
press" and their production is of a consistent high quality. The only
thing preventing them from competing with the big guys as far as
professionalism category is their inability keep to their announced
deadlines. 

The small press was traditionally the place for newer writers to move
up from into pro markets. It was where you got your start, wrote and
published your journeyman work and moved on to the big press. The
Horror Show was a major nurturer of talent and a number of writers who
now publish professionally started out in The Horror Show. Same with
Stephen Jones' Fantasy Tales in the UK. Unfortunately, it seems to me
that many of the writers who are currently writing for the small press
as it exists today are happy where they are. They don't see any reason
to progress beyond the small press. But the small press is a tiny, very
limited market. The goal of every writer is communication and I would
think that a writer's goal(not being a writer myself) would be to reach
the largest audience possible. 

So I guess what I'm saying is that I think that talented small press
writers such as Charlee Jacob and Paul Finch should and will break out
of the small press so that a larger audience will discover them. I
reprinted a poem by Charlee Jacobs last year in YBFH#15 and I hope she
gained some more audience through that publication.

Independent press and small press are two different things--perhaps we
could call CD and Subterranean Press independent presses. 

I think there are some very dedicated people publishing (I'm not going
to list them all here) really good books and some other people who
don't have a clue. (I won't name them either :-))
 
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #29 of 126: Martha Soukup (soukup) Sun 5 Jan 03 22:33
    
E-mail from Jonathan Laden:

Thanks for taking the time to be virtually here.

Speaking of virtuality,  ScienceFiction.com is an interesting foray into
virtual publishing. As you have pioneered in this area, could you tell us
what unexpected pitfalls and pleasures you have encountered?

I know as a reader, I interact with your site differently than I do with my
magazine subscriptions. I wonder if the stresses end up being different on
the editorial team as well. Do you choose different stories because of the
medium? Do authors refuse you because they worry they can't sell reprint
writes to a story that is always "in print"? Is your reach better - or worse
- than it might be if the same content were in print format?

Thank you.

Jonathan Laden
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #30 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Mon 6 Jan 03 06:54
    
You're welcome, Jonathan. 

The unexpected perk of publishing online is that you can correct typos
at any time. It also is quicker. The production process is much faster
than with most print publishing. That can simultaneously be its
pitfall. Because I don't have to schedule as far in advance as with
print (which generally if produced two-three months in advance of
publication) I don't need as large an inventory. Which means I'm far
too often scrambling to keep ahead. The fluidity of my production
schedule can sometimes get in my way, if you see what I mean.

I don't choose different stories than I would otherwise, except that I
can publish novellas online, and working at OMNI when it was a print
magazine made that impossible--there just wasn't the space. On the web
there is infinite space. On a month by month basis I don't have to
choose a certain length because of space constraints (in slicks, how
many ads you've got coming in determines page count of the magazine
every month).

There are a few writers (or there agents) who won't sell their stories
online. I think it's less the "reprint" issue --any of our
contributors can ask to have their story removed after our six month
exclusivity period if they sell to another venue. However, we've found
(the authors and I) that keeping a story up that's in a print
collection by that author is a good advertisement for the book and in
fact, doesn't seem to hurt sales at all. So no one has yet asked to
have a story removed. The classics are different --we're often buying
"reprint" rights for a limited period of time. I think the authors who
won't sell to a web publication yearn to feel their story on paper. I
can't blame them but it still bothers me :-)

Our potential reach is better--the web is a huge place-but whether we
actually reach as many readers as the digests...I don't know.
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #31 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Mon 6 Jan 03 07:36
    
Well, I'm back. Horror, yes; used to be a whole lot of it around, then
hardly any at all, and now there's more than there was but still...if
we're going to talk about a genre market that became so oversaturated
with schlock as to drive away, or drown, the worthiest practitioners
than it's hard to come up with a better example than horror (though
hard fantasy is well on the way, I think). Ellen, why do you think
A)that horror became so popular as it did, when it did (I know David
Skal has discussed theories of this in some of his very good books)and
B)how publishers can avoid killing the (somewhat tarnished)golden goose
the second time in a row? 

In conjunction with this, you know very well what makes a good
anthology. What, in your opinion, makes for a bad anthology? Not simply
quality of stories, naturally, because we're both aware of bad
anthologies with good stories -- perhaps a better question is:  what
makes a good anthologist?
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #32 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Mon 6 Jan 03 07:38
    
Hard fantasy, the mind boggles (I suppose John Norman could qualify).
High fantasy, I meant.
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #33 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Mon 6 Jan 03 14:28
    
I don't know what David Skal has said about it (I've read a few of his
books but unfortunately not enough of them) but I think that Stephen
King's remarkable success created an inflated idea of the audience for
horror, which got marketing people at publishers to think that they
could create a genre where there hadn't been one before. Horror up
until King was shelved with the fiction. But King is sui generis and no
other horror writers have been as successful as he is-which doesn't
mean that horror and dark fantasy and dark crime doesn't sell.
Obviously it does. Dean Koontz sells, Anne Rice sells. They sell
extremely well and often make the bestseller lists. But when every
publisher decided to jump on the bandwagon and create its own horror
line they bought books that they hoped would become as popular as
King's rather than develop writers slowly and encourage them to go
their own ways. Of _course_ the market was saturated and the audience
never materialized. 

Horror is indeed being published now by the big houses although it's
often not called horror. As long as publishers try to buy horror books
that they believe in and not just "cash in" then the field will slowly
increase its influence. There actually is almost as much a glut in the
small press field now as there was in among the big boys. The small
press audience--limited to begin with--needs to grow not shrink. If
small presses publish everything that comes their way without quality
control they'll lose their shirts as even the small press market
shrinks.  This is frankly just shooting my mouth off--I don't know if
this will indeed happen but it certainly could. 
Anthologies next up :-)
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #34 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Mon 6 Jan 03 15:08
    
What makes a good anthology and a good anthologist eh?
 
Well story quality being equal (as I know you and I agree that there
should be any "bad" ie poorly written--stories in anthologies) there
needs to be a good balance of types of stories. No matter how narrow a
theme may seem there is a wide range of stories that can be fitted into
that theme. In fact, testing how far you can take a theme can be
what's most fun about a theme anthology. It forces both the editor and
the potential contributors to stretch their creative muscles. When I
edit a theme anthology I must in my own mind, be able to justify each
story fitting within the them. But back to balance--an editor has to be
careful not to have too many stories of one tone, one place, one point
of view. I always tell writers that an anthology is more open at the
beginning tha nearing the end. Initially I'm open to much more variety
but as it comes to home stretch I already have certain _types_ of
stories so the last holes in the anthology are the hardest to fill. 

In putting the stories in order the first and last stories are very
important. For me the first should be setting the tone. The last should
be a very strong one. You've got to make sure you don't have several
really long stories in a row, several really depressing stories in a
row. 

When I was near the end of my forthcoming Ghost/horror anthology THE
DARK, I realized that there was no story that felt right as the first
story and that was a problem. I was grousing about this to Jeff Ford a
few days before I was leaving for Maine and he piped up and said "I'll
write you one and get it to you while you're in Maine!) I said
"oookay..." but I didn't really think he'd be able to produce a "first
story" on demand. Sonofagun he did and emailed it to me
--unfortunately, he had to email it to Liz Hand's computer because it
was set up with a printer and she couldn't figure out how to download
it so I ended up reading the first draft in the email, not the ideal
reading situation. But I could see that it was just  what the book
needed and after a rewrite I bought the story.

Editing a good original anthology is a completely hands-on job. You
can't produce a good anthology unless you can say NO to submissions. I
find it difficult to believe that every "commissioned" story (I don't
commnission I _ask_ for submissions) is of high quality and perfect for
an anthology no matter who the writer is. 

I've never edited an anthology that didn't require a line edit of each
story. In all my years as an editor I think I've come across maybe a
handful of stories that were so "clean" that I found nothing to query
or edit in that line edit. So anyone who "edits" an anthology and takes
a story "as is" with no suggestions/queries/ --in other words without
editing it is not doing their job. 
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #35 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Mon 6 Jan 03 16:31
    
(as I know you and I agree that there
      should be any "bad" ie poorly written--stories in anthologies) 

SHOULDN'T I meant SHOULDN'T!! I wish we could edit these posts
sometimes :-)
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #36 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Tue 7 Jan 03 07:06
    
Excellent, excellent. And when it comes to horror, let's not forget
Dan Simmons (like Jeff Ford, another author I publicize! plug plug...)

Time for some non-writing material. A little background first:  Ellen
lives in downtown New York. For two days following 9/11, she was not
allowed to come north of what was then the initial Frozen Zone. On 9/13
we were finally able to hook up, at a restaurant in Chelsea just above
14th Street. Ellen, what was that like, in those first couple of days?
And (as someone who has been quoted regarding same, in the NY Times no
less)what do you think should be built downtown? And what do you think
of the plans so far?
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #37 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Tue 7 Jan 03 12:55
    
Of course Dan Simmons--one of my favorite writers--I published the
story that became part of THE HOLLOW MAN and the novelette that became
CARRION COMFORT at OMNI. And was a World Fantasy Award judge when SONG
OF KALI won for Best Novel. 

The actual day it happened, I went over to St Vincent's Hospital a few
blocks away from where I live and tried to volunteer to do ANYTHING
but there were already long lines of people doing the same thing. Alice
Turner and I tried to get together to volunteer somewhere but I wasn't
allowed below Houston Street and she was told if she went north of it
she wouldn't be allowed back home! A few days later Lois Metzger and I
(who lived within the same closed off area) walked all over the place
trying to help. It was very frustrating actually because no one wanted
us for anything. Finally, she left for home and I shopped at the cheap
stores along 14th street for towels to bring over to St Vincents for
transport to the site for the workers. Another day I brought over
snacks for the police at the 6th precinct. (I think it was with Lois
but I'm not sure).
Two things struck me during those days--everyone in the neighborhoods
affected wanted to volunteer--to help--in any way they could.
And uptown, enroute to the upper east side on the subway (where I had
to go for a doctor's appt two days later, it was as if nothing had
happened --as if I was in an alternate reality where everything was
normal. 

As to what should be built downtown, I HAVE been thinking about it for
awhile, and partipated in a round of internet forums set up by an org
called "Listening to the City"--after the first design plans were
shown. Discussing and arguing with other people who were passionate
about the city was great. And seeing the second set of designs has
concretized what is crucial for the rebuilding (in my mind). The actual
shape/size, etc of the buildings are not the most important aspect of
the building process. What is crucial is what is created on the ground
level for the community, for NYC, and for everyone else. Yes, there
should of course be a memorial and yes it is important for _something_
impressive to be built to grace the NYC skyline. But....the streets,
the transportation, and the cultural/economic environment created
downtown is absolutely crucial to the future of downtown. 
The WTC was built when there _was_ no community downtown. Battery Park
City did not exist. The fact is that many New Yorkers hated the towers
(me included) as ugly, cold, blocks --completely uninviting to humans.
Only the underground mall was a lively place and that was more used to
get to the PATH train to NJ and as a conduit to other streets than a
"hang out."
There IS a thriving community living downtown now and they need
amenities. A bookstore to replace the Borders that was lost. Instead of
a windblown surface of concrete people-friendly places for visitors,
locals, and those who work downtown. 

The only architectural design I like is the Libskind (I know I'm
spelling it wrong)--the guy from Germany. I like his structures. But he
doesn't go enough into what it would be like to work and visit the
area. The other designs show ugly buildings but more of an idea what
the ground level would be like, which as I say, is crucial. 

I just hope that what the city and the area NEEDS is foremost in the
planners' minds rather than pleasing everyone.
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #38 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Tue 7 Jan 03 13:18
    
Whatever goes up on the WTC site isn't going to look like any of the
plans so far, that much is sure. We can only hope...it is remarkable,
though, how many of these plans and ideas still require vast amounts of
open, windswept terrain. 

Considering how much time you spend on line now, have you thought of
having a blog on your site (www.datlow.com)? I know you have a section
called "Meanderings" though as blogs now go, that's pretty informal!
Even Bill just started doing one (www.williamgibsonbooks.com), and I
keep thinking I should -- calling it "Natterings" or "Nitwittery" or
something of the sort. Or do you think that's too close to the online
diary sort of thing which, as we know, can sometimes be employed for
nefarious purpose? 

Or should you, like me, figure that after a point you should just go
outside and play?
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #39 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Tue 7 Jan 03 14:10
    
You really don't want me to have a life, do you? :-) I spend far too
much online as it is. I'd rather talk to friends in person or on email
about ideas/theories/gossip, etc I'd rather not share it ALL with the
world....

But I just tuned into Bill's and it's interesting (even thogh he just
started it). Jonathan Carroll had a good one for while he was on the
road: http://www.whiteapples.com/journal.html

I think _you_ don't spend nearly enough time online,Jack and you'd be
a great blogger. Please do it. I'll read it --I promise! 
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #40 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Wed 8 Jan 03 07:50
    
Blogging, well, I'd have to do it without a section for comments. Was
participating in a nice long thread on bookstores on Patrick's
www.nielsenhayden.com/electrolyte when someone decided I was rebutting
something he said, clearly became insulted, and implied that I was
ignorant, or stupid, or both. 

I realized once again that the problem with online anything is that
when you leave things open to discussion to the public at large, at any
given time you can find yourself subject to someone who, if you met
them in person, you'd want to either 1)walk very fast away from, or
2)beat about the head with a pipe until their brains came out their
ears.

Ah, that feels better.

Getting back to writing, and publishing, and being online without
being at anyone's mercy (including publishers!). Here's an evergreen
question -- what do you think the state of genre publishing, overall,
will be like in ten years? 

Subquestions:  Will the high fantasy bubble burst? Will science
fiction be left in the dust, swallowed entire by media tie-ins and
aforesaid high fantasy? Will e-books ever work? Will short story
collections appear only under the auspices of small publishers?
How much more fragmented will the audience become? Join in, public at
large! And don't make me want to beat you over the head with pipes!!
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #41 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Wed 8 Jan 03 07:58
    
Jack,
Before I get into your new question, I'd like to make a brief side
tour in response to one of your earlier questions for me. What are YOUR
opinions about the WTC designs? As a firmly (I hope) transplanted New
Yorker I know you have strong feelings about the city and were also
very much affected by the 9/11, despite living way uptown. 
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #42 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Wed 8 Jan 03 08:11
    
The one I liked best was the same one you liked, Liebeskind's. There
was just something about it that had the right touch -- I have no
objection to having anything extremely tall down there, I just have
serious doubts that putting up anything extremely tall that people may
want to work or live in, especially on the site. I'm in complete
agreement with you as well in that whatever is built there should not
be set apart in any way from the surrounding city, as the WTC was.
Remains to be seen what's going to come out of all this, considering
the participants who have a say-so, but if they at least cut through
some of the old streets that would at least afford the opportunity to
have something of more human scale on the ground. 

As to what the memorial itself should be, I have no idea. I really
don't. You may have read elsewhere that the incident resulting in the
greatest loss of life in a single day prior to 9/11, the sinking of the
General Slocum in the East River on June 15, 1904 (over 1,000 dead,
mostly women and children) is commemorated solely by a water fountain
in Tompkins Square. I imagine it'll be something more than that.
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #43 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Wed 8 Jan 03 08:24
    
Thanks Jack. I very like the Irish Potato Famine memorial near Battery
Park City. It's extraordinary in its design and feel. You saw it
right? It's small but packs a punch.

OK Back to publishing.
Aighh. The old where is the genre going to be in ten years
question...I suspect sf will chug on and continue, with brilliant new
writers making their marks and publishers declaring them to be the new
big thing and other publishers will then try to "create" their own
brilliant new writers and fail. Just like always. 

The high fantasy bubble will burst (I hope), and I don't think the
idea of e-books will go away. There need to be new developments in
e-readers that will make them cheap and use-friendly. 

Short story collections are still being published (ie single-author
collections. I hate when people call anthologies "collections." It
muddies the waters) just not very often by large publishers. But the
small press is overpublishing collections. There are far too many
collections out there by journeyman and even beginning writers who are
not ready to collect all their work or don't have "best work." I see
this far more in the horror field than in sf though. There aren't many 
small press sf publishers as there are horror.

I think the sf field is as fragmented as it's going to get--how
_could_ it become more fragmented? 
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #44 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Wed 8 Jan 03 08:32
    
The Irish Potato Famine monument is very well done indeed (and as a
matter of fact, I saw it with you -- it was right after they reopened
the Winter Garden).

Let's stick to New York for another question. What are your five
favorite non-tourist spots in NYC? Tell me yours, and I'll tell you
mine.
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #45 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Wed 8 Jan 03 08:39
    
But then everyone one else will know them !!!

OK.
St Luke Church's secret garden down in Soho. Just south of Christopher
Street
Academy Records for used CDs.(although I did turn my sister and
brother-in-law onto it)
The flea markets --the one on 79th street in the schoolyard, the $1
one on 25th street, the one on the west side of the street around 24th
street
my apartment <g>
The Chelsea Flower Market and the Union Square Greenmarket

Your turn
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #46 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Wed 8 Jan 03 09:07
    
1. Staple Street, which runs between Harrison and Duane Street in
Tribeca. Used to be the old butter, egg & cheese wholesale district.
One of those old enclosed overhead passageways runs between buildings
on either side of the street.
2. The garden at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, where tourists
never go.
3. Lexington Luncheonette, the old soda fountain at Lexington and
83rd; pretty much the last one left in Manhattan.
4. Wave Hill, in Riverdale.
5. Fiske Place, and the other one-block street in the same block, in
Park Slope, Brooklyn, in the snow.

Many more of course but these come immediately to mind.

What 5 NYC places that are now gone do you most miss?
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #47 of 126: Ellen Datlow (ellen-datlow) Wed 8 Jan 03 14:28
    

1.Sutter's Bakery on Greenwich Avenue and 10th street--it was across
the street from the Woman's House of Detention (also gone, but no loss
there as it's replaced by a lovely community garden) and had the best
Napoleons. I was devasted when it folded. There was another one in the
Bronx that my grandmother went to. Don't know when that one folded

2.The Elgin movie theater on 8th avenue where I used to see triple
features all night. I saw Robert Downey (Sr) movies there in one shot
and also Jodorosky's El Topo and THe Holy Mountain

3. The free 26th street flea market--supplanted by high rises. 

4. The Science Fiction Book Shop--once it moved from 8th avenue it was
never as good

5. Man Ray restaurant on 8th avenue in Chelsea--it was my favorite
semi-fancy restaurant. I was upset when it changed hands and became
something else.

6. Balduccis-- any minute (it's about to close)--Good food store--fine
mimolette cheese.

Oh back to the best -Murray cheeses on Bleecker Street--best
selection, best salesmen, best prices hands down.
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #48 of 126: Jack Womack (jack-womack) Thu 9 Jan 03 08:47
    
And, here are my five, now gone:

1. Mendoza's Bookstore. Was on Ann Street downtown, just around the
corner from Park Place (next door to where the new J & R annex is).
Used and rare. Had been in business since the 1880s, closed around 1990
I think. Where I once bought Shirley Jackson first editions, in dust
jacket, for five and ten dollars a pop. There were gas heaters on both
floors.

2. The Lionel Train store on E. 23rd just off Park, for the c. 1940
neon sign, and the window display of trains.

3. B. Schachtman, the toy store at 5th and 16th. Again, a place that
had been in business since the 1890s; closed only a few years ago.
Wooden floors, racks and racks of tiny little toys and reproductions of
older toys. You & I went in there more than once, I remember.

4. Marboro Books, the bargain bookstore chain that was always better
than Barnes & Noble, and which B & N bought around 1981.

5. Woolworth's. All of them.

I feel as if we're talking in a literal well, Ellen. Is there anyone
else out there?
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #49 of 126: gone (scraps) Thu 9 Jan 03 09:03
    

I'm here and reading with interest, but I've been fighting a deadline, 
which is messing with my ability to formulate an intelligent question.
  
inkwell.vue.170 : Ellen Datlow, editor, Sci Fiction
permalink #50 of 126: Shambolic post-it notes on the wall of my daily life (tinymonster) Thu 9 Jan 03 09:40
    
<cite>I realized once again that the problem with online anything is
that when you leave things open to discussion to the public at large,
at any given time you can find yourself subject to someone who, if you
met them in person, you'd want to either 1)walk very fast away from, or
2)beat about the head with a pipe until their brains came out their
ears.</cite>

LOL!!  Too true, too true.  There are some scaaary people out there,
including the kind who probably <i>would</i> be carrying lead pipes
around!

I'm really enjoying the discussions on New York nooks and crannies!  I
love that city more every time I'm there.
  

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