tambourine verde (barb-albq) Thu 20 Nov 03 08:39
I'm sure the Shia are smart enough to tell their US occupiers anything at this point to gain control. What they do afterwards is another issue entirely. Amazing how quickly BushCo is backing down from almost all the positions that it held at the start of this "peace."
John Zuill (klauposius) Thu 20 Nov 03 09:00
Well you have to cut them some slack. It would be what they are calling " a learning process." But I agree. Setting a deadline for getting out of Iraq provides thier enemies with many oppurtunities to manipulate the situation and they will.
Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 20 Nov 03 10:26
It's somewhat encouraging. Democracy means the Iraqis have to figure things out for themselves. It's about time the administration realized it.
tambourine verde (barb-albq) Thu 20 Nov 03 10:28
I'll wait and see. Talk is cheap with this admin.
Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Thu 20 Nov 03 10:41
I don't think the administration *wants* the Iraqi to figure things out for themselves.
John Zuill (klauposius) Thu 20 Nov 03 11:01
The ambiguous positioin of the admin in relation to the issue of democracy may blow the whole thing. I know that everybody thinks democracy is a good thing -but it is important to remember that it is a tricky thing to get going. The US has never suceeded in doing it. Why they are so confident they can is a question indeed.
Gail Williams (gail) Thu 20 Nov 03 11:57
Small visual aside from the international world of protest culture: http://www.fotolog.net/johannaneurath/?photo_id=2463344
Ron Levin (eclectic2) Fri 21 Nov 03 09:34
Poll: Most Iraqis accept US troops By Andrew Hammond, Reuters, 11/21/2003 BAGHDAD -- A growing number of Iraqis thinks US troops should stay in Iraq until the security situation improves, research published this month has found. In a survey carried out by the Psychological Research Center of Baghdad University, 71.5 percent of Iraqis think the US occupation is necessary at least for a while, compared to 42 percent in a survey by the center in June. "This shows an acceptance of the foreign presence as a temporary solution because of the fear, confusion and absence of law and order following the collapse of the old regime," the report said. President Bush said yesterday more troops could be sent to Iraq if necessary to secure the country. The study also showed 63.2 percent approved of the Governing Council, appointed by the US occupying authorities in July, as a first step toward stability and a new Iraq. Only 36.8 percent said the Council merely reinforced the occupation. The research was carried out in a sample of 1,000 people from different sectors of the population all over the country of about 26 million people, which has seen security deteriorate amid a mounting insurgency against US forces. More: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/21/poll_many_iraqis_accept_ us_troops/
John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 09:48
This is going to be a long war.
Gail Williams (gail) Fri 21 Nov 03 10:13
What's happening in Turkey? This article http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/11/21/turkey/ has a small mention of the groups claiming responsibility for the bombings: > An unidentified caller to the semiofficial Anatolia news agency said > al-Qaida and a small militant Turkish group, the Islamic Great Eastern > Raiders' Front jointly claimed responsibility for both sets of attacks. Anybody know much about the IGERF?
John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 11:30
The following I recieved on the net and can not make any statement as to its validity. It seems authentic. Has anyone else seen it? (Quote) The following is an edited version of a statement purportedly from a unit of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network, Abu Hafz al-Masri Brigades. It appeared today on an Islamist website, al-Mujahidoun, and was translated from the Arabic by Reuters Friday November 21, 2003 Statement from the Jihad al-Qaida "Operation Islamic Iron Hammer". We mentioned and we promised in our earlier statement: "As for the tails of America - especially Britain, Italy, Australia and Japan - who did not understand what was said by mojahedin leader Sheikh Osama bin Laden before Ramadan when he threatened that martyrdom operations would not stop inside and outside America ... And if they do not understand words then the cars of death will make them understand". And we said: "The cars of death will not stop ... until Washington concedes to the conditions of the mojahedin [Islamist fighters] ... and here now are the cars of death reaping the [souls of the] allies of the tyrant of the era every day ... and by the will of God, America will soon look for someone to protect it from the mohahedin on its soil. In Turkey today, the vanguards of the Abu Hafz al-Masri Brigades targeted the British consul, Roger Short, because of his extensive experience in combatting Islam and because he is considered the mastermind of British policy in the region comprising Iraq, Syria, Turkey and Iran. Our cars of death struck the consulate building ... and by the grace of God, he was killed. As for the British bank headquarters, this is a bastion of the British economy and let Britain and its people know that its alliance with America will not bring it prosperity or security We admit that the cars of death that targeted the British bank were put in an inappropriate place, which caused some casualties among innocents, and this pains us tremendously, but the media must share our blame because we have repeatedly warned Muslims not to go anywhere near the diplomatic, economic or military headquarters of America and its allies; for our real war, which will begin soon, will have no boundaries and will show no mercy towards the tyrant of the era and his allies. As for you Turkey, isn't it time you left the Crusader army and returned to the Islamic nation? Isn't it time you withdrew your army from Afghanistan; stopped all ties with the Zionists entity; stopped providing American with soldiers for Iraq; left the Crusader Atlantic alliance? We consider the government of Turkey as a first-class agent for America and therefore it must choose - peace or America. O Bush, what have you done to America and its allies ... where is the security you promised them, where is the developed Afghanistan, where is the free, secure Iraq? By God Bush, you've fallen into a trap as we planned for you. You're engaged in a war with people who love death as much as you love life. So prepare yourself for what is coming. Listen to us, you criminal, the cars of death will not stop until you concede to our demands and they include: 1. That they free our prisoners in American prisons, especially the prisoners of Guantanamo and the mojahed Sheikh Omar Abdul-Rahman and those in the jails of the Arab, western, Persian and Jewish tails of America. 2. That they stop their war against Islam and Muslims around the world in the name of fighting terrorism. 3. To purify all Islamic land from the filth of the Jews and Americans, including Jerusalem and Kashmir. 4. For America to stop interfering between us and the tyrannical governments which rule Muslims and for us to set up an Islamic caliphate [state]. O Islamic nation, you must support the mojahedin to victory ... God is Greatest, Islam is on the way. Abu Hafz al-Masri Brigades. (end-quote)
John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 11:52
Have a source for the above quote The Guardian www.guardian.co.uk/
David Kline (dkline) Fri 21 Nov 03 11:56
>> and for us to set up an Islamic caliphate [state]. Well, that about sums it up. Their demands include that we allow them to set up an Islamic world order. We'll have no peace anywhere until they, or we, are dead.
Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Fri 21 Nov 03 12:02
John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 12:08
I say let em try to set up a caliphate. What nation-states have worked so well? Why does the west think you have to have a nation for anything to make sense. Nations are an approbrious failure mostly. Look at the US. Works pretty well right? Because its all divided up into semi-autonomous dominions. 50 of them with thier own common law of all things. Sounds a bit like a caliphate doesn't it? I seem to remember ( I move into an area of less knowlege here ) that the Caliphate was a loose agreement among different soveriiengties wasn't it?
Ron Levin (eclectic2) Sat 22 Nov 03 09:59
U.S. Seeks Advice From Israel on Iraq By Esther Schrader and Josh Meyer, Times Staff Writers WASHINGTON Facing a bloody insurgency by guerrillas who label it an "occupier," the U.S. military has quietly turned to an ally experienced with occupation and uprisings: Israel. In the last six months, U.S. Army commanders, Pentagon officials and military trainers have sought advice from Israeli intelligence and security officials on everything from how to set up roadblocks to the best way to bomb suspected guerrilla hide-outs in an urban area. "Those who have to deal with like problems tend to share information as best they can," Stephen Cambone, undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, said Friday at a defense writers breakfast here. The contacts between the two governments on military tactics and strategies in Iraq are mostly classified, and officials are reluctant to give the impression that the U.S. is brainstorming with Israel on the best way to occupy Iraq. Cambone said there is no formal dialogue between the two allies on Iraq, but they are working together. Indeed, the U.S. is loath to draw any comparison between what it says is its liberation of Iraq and what the international community has condemned as Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. But Israeli and American officials confirm that with extremists carrying out suicide bombings and firing rocket-propelled grenades and missiles on U.S. forces in Iraq, the Pentagon is increasingly seeking advice from the Israeli military on how to defeat the sort of insurgency that Israel has long experience confronting. The Israelis "certainly have a wealth of experience from a military standpoint in dealing with domestic terror, urban terror, military operations in urban terrain, and there is a great deal of intelligence and knowledge sharing going on right now, all of which makes sense," a senior U.S. Army official said on condition of anonymity. "We are certainly tapping into their knowledge base to find out what you do in these kinds of situations." More: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-usisrael22nov22,1,7715171.s tory?coll=la-home-headlines
John Zuill (klauposius) Sat 22 Nov 03 10:07
Bad to worse
Berliner (captward) Sat 22 Nov 03 10:27
Yeah, the Israelis are living proof that their methods work, right?
John Zuill (klauposius) Sat 22 Nov 03 10:34
Well the news from Georgia is heartening.
Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Sun 23 Nov 03 12:43
There have been some relatively [if not completely peaceful] sytem turnovers in the last 100 years, let's hope Georgia continues on that thread.
Berliner (captward) Mon 24 Nov 03 09:53
The latest issue of Granta (83) mostly focuses on climate change, but it ends with three great articles on Iraq. First is Christopher de Bellaigue on the looting of the Iraqi Museum, then Guardian reporter James Meek's diary of the invasion -- very critical of Americans, as you might expect. But the real gem is a diary of the Iraqi artist Nuha al-Radi, as she returns from exile in Lebanon to her family and friends in Baghdad. Hers is the sort of voice we should be paying attention to: she's fluent in a number of languages, highly educated, but from a Muslim nation. Where our media see a firm guiding hand helping a formerly oppressed people towards democracy she sees overbearing paternalism and condescension. If there are enough like her, nobody needs to fear for Iraq. But I suspect that every day there are, in fact, fewer.
John Zuill (klauposius) Mon 24 Nov 03 19:42
Is granta back in print? I thought they stopped issueing it.
Michael C. Berch (mcb) Mon 24 Nov 03 21:58
I wasn't aware it had ever stopped. I've subscribed for several years.
William H. Dailey (whdailey) Wed 26 Nov 03 23:04
Albright said a while back that we should have picked up all of the light arms right after we "won" the war. I have read that it is easier to change from one religion to another than to go from no religion to any religion. We needed an eleventh Commandment: Thou shalt not lust for power over thy fellow man. White slavery is actually being aided by the internet; brothel owners can simply get on the web and order up women. Atomic bombs are now out of date. The russian KGB has weapons powerful enough to split the very earth. They can lay down desease over whole nations. Lucky for the rest of us, a couple of small nations are on a par with them and could wipe them out if they misbehave. In our country, certain scientific progress has been suppressed by the same people who are trying to gain control over all of the oil in this earth. We do have the flying saucers though. In the news recently it was said that Bush decided to continue to keep their hiding place, area 51 secret.
David Kline (dkline) Thu 27 Nov 03 10:15
Yep, and I think I'm picking up CIA radio frequencies in my brain.
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