The WELL: inkwell.vue.232: Mike Rose, "The Mind at Work"

#96: If gopod's on our side s/he'll stop the next war (karish) Mon 3 Jan 05 10:10

Mon, 03 Jan 2005 10:10:00 PST

I apologize for coming late to the conversation; an emergency pulled me away just as it gained momentum.

Between episodes of college attendance I worked for six years in a job shop that specialized in abrasive machining. It was striking how much of the specific knowledge that made the company viable was held in the minds and hands of the "unskilled" workers. The engineers who designed the machinery and the tasks couldn't have specified how to do the work well enough to have replaced workers who had a feel for how to get the most out of the processes.

On another note, I'm a bit disappointed that this discussion didn't dig deeper into the issues Mike considered in his conclusions to "The Mind At Work". How can our educational system recognize the value of learning skills not usually considered to be intellectual without slighting the importance of the skills on which the schools now focus? This book wrestles with values in the abstract in a way that reminds me of Robert Pirsig's battle with Quality in "Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance". How do we want to communicate to the next generation what our society values?

And thanks for that song, <croz>. You sang it for us in Redwood City just after I learned that we'd discuss this book on the Well. It was a great lead-in for me. [Read entire topic]

#95: Gail Williams (gail) Fri 17 Dec 04 15:00

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:00:00 PST

What a fine interview. Thank you Pamela and Mike! [Read entire topic]

#94: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 17 Dec 04 12:50

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:50:00 PST

I echo David's thanks, and want to add thanks also to Pamela McCorduck for lending us her fine talents in leading this conversation. What in interesting, thought-provoking two weeks this has been.

Though our virtual spotlight has turned to another author, this topic will remain open and available for further discussion. I know that Mike Rose is busy and might not be able to check in much, but we'll look forward to anything else he's able to contribute and welcome further discussion here. [Read entire topic]

#93: David Gans (tnf) Fri 17 Dec 04 12:06

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:06:00 PST

Thank you for joining us, Mike. I am glad to read that you'll continue to visit. [Read entire topic]

#92: Allegro ma non tofu (pamela) Fri 17 Dec 04 10:41

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:41:00 PST

Whoops, Mike slipped as I was composing the posting above.

Before you rush off--or maybe after you get back--I hoped you would say something to blast away these dualities that have plagued us: brain vs. hand, abstract vs. concrete, intellectual vs. practical, academic vs. vocational, pure vs. applied, reflective vs. technical, new knowledge work vs. old industrial work, neck up vs. neck down.

Meanwhile, happy and peaceful holidays to everyone. [Read entire topic]

#91: Allegro ma non tofu (pamela) Fri 17 Dec 04 10:39

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:39:00 PST

The Japanese certainly excell at notions of aristocracy, but apparently it doesn't necessarily relate to brains. If you haven't passed your university exams, it isn't because you're lacking the wherewithal, it's becaus you haven't studied hard enough. Different world-view.

But yes, we've got a long history of discrimination by class in this country. It's just that the lines change, part of what you referred to as "amnesia". What was once honored is now dismissed as negligible. [Read entire topic]

#90: Mike Rose (mike-rose) Fri 17 Dec 04 10:34

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:34:00 PST

To all: This has been a wonderful experience for me, and I'm honored to have been part of The Well community. I have rarely encountered such a group of engaged and articulate readers. I learned a lot from the exchange--I really mean that. Thank all of you for the chance to talk with you.

I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge Pamela for her thoughtful accompaniment, Cynthia Dyer-Bennet for her guidance, and Jon Lebkowsky (and his friend Ruth Glendinning) for inviting me into The Well.

I will be away for a while over the holidays but will drop in occasionally after that. Happy holidays to everybody. [Read entire topic]

#89: Mike Rose (mike-rose) Fri 17 Dec 04 10:30

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:30:00 PST

Gail: That is very kind of you to say. Thanks.

Pamela: This is something that has puzzled me for a while: that in a country that has long defined itself as a non-aristocratic, supposedly classless society, we develop other ways of stratifying ourselves. The impulse goes back centuries. 18th century mechanics were as a group sometimes referred to in editorials as illiterate and incapable of participating in government. Whether it is through occupation; geographical region; gender, race/ethnicity, immigrant status; or scores on an I.Q. test we have this predisposition to classify entire segments of our population as being more or less intelligent. And the notion that we have about intelligence is that it is a pretty fixed thing. I guess that's one reason that I wrote The Mind at Work, to try to get us to reflect on these long-standing, seemingly commonsensical ways of dividing ourselves up. Maybe this is all just another manifestation of the aristocratic impulse. [Read entire topic]

#88: Allegro ma non tofu (pamela) Fri 17 Dec 04 08:47

Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:47:00 PST

One more thing, this about education. You say that as you're describing the teachers you've watched, you realize that none of them is talking to his students or to you in a way that suggests that some kids have got it and some don't. There's no talk about innate talents or of deficits vs. giftedness. Though this attitude prevails in other cultures (e.g., Japan-- you fail the university exams, you try again next year, and the year after that if necessary) it's nearly absent in the U.S. We really do carry on as if some people have it and some don't. Could you say more about that? [Read entire topic]

#87: Gail Williams (gail) Thu 16 Dec 04 19:06

Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:06:00 PST

What a treasure trove of knowledge you bring! [Read entire topic]