Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 28 Jan 05 18:01
I don't want to derail the conversation, and we'd be very pleased to have everybody stick around and continue this discussion as long as you are all able to do so. This is a fascinating exploration, indeed. Thank you, Sajjad and Farooq, for joining us, and Gerry for serving as moderator here for the past two weeks. Though we've just launched a new conversation with another writer elsewhere in this conference, this topic will remain open indefinitely. So please feel free to carry on if you want to. There's still so much to delve into!
Farooq Khan (farooq) Fri 28 Jan 05 19:02
Thank you for hosting this discussion and to all those who participated. These types of discussions are an important step forward. Thinking people will realise just how crucial these debates and discussions are especially as interaction with the Muslim world will shape international relations in the 21st century. I hope Sajjad's magazine will achieve its vision, and that people reading this will aid the magazine in achieving its objectives. We are all responsible for the reality and challenges facing us. Future generations depend upon us taking up these challenges with wisdom and foresight.
Gerry Feeney (gerry) Fri 28 Jan 05 19:17
Sajjad, I admire the way you handled that backlog of questions. Just in case any of our readers might be unaware, we are in different time zones, so the discussion here often in progresses in fits and starts. Farooq and Sajjad, each of you have stated that you believe the Caliphate will be restored. I am curious to know how you envision the unfolding of events leading up to that. For example, do you envision that it is a matter of one nation adopting the concept first, and then, upon seeing its success, other nations would follow suit? Or do you see it as a movement that would gradually gather momentum in various nations simulataneously?
midget gems (riffraff) Fri 28 Jan 05 19:59
I just want to add my thanks. Sajjad, you diligently gave attention and consideration to every question placed and that took a lot of work and a lot of juggling. I appreciate the time and energy you've put into the discussion.
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Fri 28 Jan 05 22:07
I'd like to add my thanks to everyone as well, it has been very stimulating. My colleagues and I have tens of ideas for future issues. I personally have learnt many things in the last two weeks. Specific thanks to Cynthia and Gerry for their hard work.
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Fri 28 Jan 05 22:25
>Farooq and Sajjad, each of you have stated that you believe the >Caliphate will be restored. I am curious to know how you envision >the unfolding of events leading up to that. For example, do you >envision that it is a matter of one nation adopting the concept >first, and then,upon seeing its success, other nations would follow >suit? Or do you see it as a movement that would gradually gather >momentum in various nations simulataneously? A combination of both, what I currently see is a significant revival in terms of support for an Islamic Caliphate across the Muslim world. However what I believe is that it will initially be established in one or maybe two places. Once established it will become a catalyst for change in the rest of the Islamic world. However the onus is on the Caliphate to rise to this challenge and appeal not just to Muslims, but also to others who are disaffected with the current international status quo
Public persona (jmcarlin) Fri 28 Jan 05 23:41
> In the same vein a well accepted principle is that occupied > land cannot be bargained away, this would be considered appeasement. This is absolutely a key point. If the parties in the Middle East can not find a way to live together there will some day be a nuclear war. The land there has been conquered and reconquered over the past few thousand years. The only sane way out is to have all parties drop the conflicting claims and work on living together as brothers and sisters.
Farooq Khan (farooq) Sat 29 Jan 05 05:52
<scribbled by farooq Sat 29 Jan 05 05:52>
Farooq Khan (farooq) Sat 29 Jan 05 05:53
><farooq> has argued in <islam.ind.> that the existance of God can be proven logically which follows in the broad tradition of such people as St. Anselm and St. Thomas Aquinas. I don't think that can be done successfully, outside of Pascal's wager, but he's following in a broad tradition already trod by Christian philosphers< That's not strictly true as we have discussed already but lets discuss it further in the <islam.ind.> conference.
It's a new sun to me (nukem777) Sun 30 Jan 05 07:47
which topic thread Farooq?
Gerry Feeney (gerry) Sun 30 Jan 05 08:05
We can also continue the discussion here. Though this topic is no longer in the Inkwell spotlight, there's nothing to prevent it from continuing here indefinitely.
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Mon 31 Jan 05 09:55
>If the parties in the Middle East can not find a way to live >together there will some day be a nuclear war. The land there has >been conquered and reconquered over the past few thousand years. >The only sane way out is to have all parties drop the conflicting >claims and work on living together as brothers and sisters. Gerry two points 1 I agree that people should live together but what system would this be under. A secular state favoured by most Israelis or an Islamic state favoured by a significant proportion of Muslims. My own view is that historically the latter system accommodated both Jews and Muslims without undue instability or oppression. Compare this with the chronic situation since 1947 where effectively perpetual war has existed. 2 Secondly the principle of compromise is hardly applied consistently. i.e the Iraqi annexation of Kuwait was reversed by the US lead coalition, even though Kuwait historically as a nation didn't exist. The Argentinian occupation of the Falkland Islands resulted in a British armada despite the fact that the Falklands is a legacy of British colonialism. Would US land be returned to the Native Indians in the U.S. if they demanded it wholesale, I'm guessing probably not. I know its a seductive notion to want peace, but peace at any price just encourages future injustice. There has to be greater principles surely!
Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 31 Jan 05 10:02
(Sajjad, I think you meant Jerry rather than Gerry.)
pardon my amygdala (murffy) Mon 31 Jan 05 19:47
Thanks Farooq and Sajjad for your time and effort here. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a Caliphate you describe were to emerge somewhere. I guess the question then is what are the prospects of such a thing happening. They don't seem very good.
Farooq Khan (farooq) Tue 1 Feb 05 07:22
>which topic thread Farooq?< Role of the mind discussion.
It's a new sun to me (nukem777) Tue 1 Feb 05 08:07
Public persona (jmcarlin) Wed 2 Feb 05 13:38
> I know its a seductive notion to want peace, but peace at any price > just encourages future injustice. There has to be greater principles > surely! Life has been busy recently. The history of the world is replete with groups of people conquering other groups for political, economic and religious reasons. The human race needs to find a way other than war which tends to impose a different set of injustices. To put it simply, it's time for the human race to grow up.
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Thu 3 Feb 05 12:45
>It would be interesting to see what would happen if a Caliphate you >describe were to emerge somewhere I guess the question then is what >are the prospects of such a thing happening. They don't seem very >good. I respectfully disagree, I think the Caliphate's emergence is probably imminent due to a number of factors 1 Widespread revulsion against authoritarian leaders in the Muslim world and their external backers 2 The reemergence of a growing and powerful Islamic identity replacing nationalism as the key bond in society. The concept of 'ummah' is now strongly held across the Islamic world and the Muslim diaspora in the West. 3 The inability of secular, liberal western values from gaining traction (by the way elections in Iraq and Afghanistan should not be seen as evidences of support for western policies. As I have said in previous posts, elections are a core part of the Caliphate's political system). It is not elections that distinguish distinct ideological viewpoints but core values 4 The huge opposition to western interference and invasions of Muslim countries Though the above factors do not guarantee an early return of the caliphate, they provide the necessary fertile conditions for it to arrive.
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Thu 3 Feb 05 12:52
>The human race needs to find a way other than war which tends to >impose a different set of injustices. To put it simply, it's time >for the human race to grow up. Agree using force is not what I would want either and certainly not before other options have been exhausted. But human history is also characterised by the injustices of not using force as a last resort. Germany in the 30's, Rwanda in the 80's are good examples of where force used early enough may have prevented future injustices. Of course I accept a discussion around the use of force devoid of the political objectives that govern it would be spurious
pardon my amygdala (murffy) Thu 3 Feb 05 13:13
>fertile conditions Can you be more specific as to where this might happen?
Public persona (jmcarlin) Thu 3 Feb 05 13:33
> But human history is also > characterised by the injustices of not using force as a last resort. All I can say is that what George Bush claimed. I agree with you in theory, but the practice is fraught with counter-examples where that idea was used to justify what many say is a bad decision.
Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 3 Feb 05 21:02
The future isn't predictable, but my guess is that it's very likely that some governments of Muslim countries will collapse, and that more governments similar to Iran are a strong possibility. But the likelyhood that any of these governments would resemble the ideas discussed here about a Caliphate is very low. Revolutions make things worse more often than not. We tend to remember the successes.
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Fri 4 Feb 05 09:00
>fertile conditions Can you be more specific as to where this might happen? Yes strong possibilities of political transformation in Egypt, Pakistan, C Asia and Syria. But I believe there would be strong resonance in most parts of the Muslim world
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Fri 4 Feb 05 09:16
>All I can say is that what George Bush claimed. Hence my point re the futility of discussing force devoid of political objectives. Most military force in the last 100 years has been used to achieve purely economic benefits with the intention of exploitation. I'm not sure that Bush would have wanted to use force to bring 'freedom' so desperately to the Middle East if it only grew carrots.
Sajjad Khan (sajjadkhan) Fri 4 Feb 05 09:19
>Revolutions make things worse more often than not. We tend to >remember the successes. This maybe the case, but revolutions that generally are not bloody or violent tend to be more successful. The pre requisite to any 'successful' revolution is to win the war of ideas first. This is what happened in the ex communist states in the late 80's.
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