The WELL: inkwell.vue.249: Howard Bryant, "Juicing the Game"

#106: Gail Williams (gail) Wed 5 Apr 06 10:17

Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:17:00 PDT

That's probably what Morgan was saying. [Read entire topic]

#105: Jim Klopfenstein (klopfens) Wed 5 Apr 06 06:17

Wed, 05 Apr 2006 06:17:00 PDT

I'm not sure what point Morgan was trying to make, but I've heard _Juicing the Game_ mentioned by commentators arguing against the contention that _Game of Shadows_ is the motivation for the official MLB investigation. These commentators argue that it is the fact that Bonds is approaching the record that is driving the investigation (which seems correct to me, too). Their point is that there have been other authoritative books, such as _Juicing the Game_, and no investigation. [Read entire topic]

#104: Gail Williams (gail) Tue 4 Apr 06 14:46

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:46:00 PDT

I've been thinking about this conversation lately. I enjoyed the book and urged others to read it, but I couldn't read the chapter on Barry, oddly enough.

My mind kept wandering to thoughts like "how do parents explain this to young kids who are fans?" and other phenomena. This year two Chronicle writers published "Game of Shadows," during Spring Training, with grand jury leaks and allegations by Bonds' jilted mistress. All the more discouraging to me as a Giants fan and a fan of the game, but fascinating in a sort of shakespearian tragedy way.

A few nights ago I heard Joe Morgan cite "Howard Bryant's 'Juicing the Game'" but I wasn't sure what his point was amidst the ballgame patter. It was nice to hear that he respects this book, as I do. [Read entire topic]

#103: Howard Bryant (ohmy) Sat 6 Aug 05 16:34

Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:34:00 PDT

I wonder if we ever will. Then again, who knows. In honor of Valerie Pflame, the MLBPA is considering filing a grievance about the stanozolol leak to the NYT. [Read entire topic]

#102: Stephanie Vardavas (vard) Sat 6 Aug 05 15:21

Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:21:00 PDT

So what about those dozen positive tests? When will we be privileged to learn about them? [Read entire topic]

#101: Howard Bryant (ohmy) Sat 6 Aug 05 05:50

Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:50:00 PDT

<hotwired>, I'm not angry about the posts. Far from it. I was, however, frustrated by the notion that I believe that anyone who goes on a hot streak 'must be on steroids.' The inclusion of Giambi, Tino, etc. was what did it. Those guys, as far as we know, don't belong in the discussion, because they weren't found to have Winstrol in their systems.

This may not sound like a compliment, but it is, and in my book, a very big one: your last post sounds like Donald Fehr. He has been accused of being obstructionist, but he is very, very smart man, a very precise man, who does not want the conversation to be reduced to sound bites or perceived conventional wisdom. He wants facts, or some form of data that can elevate the discussion.

And right now, it does feel as if the conversation has stalled on two major fronts. The first is your point about how they help baseball players. I have always wondered if it is possible to answer this question beyond

A) the fact that they are proven to boost certain physical qualities important to a baseball player.

and B) During the past 11 years a high enough number of players have believed they help enough to use them.

As of now, the analysis of the testing has not yet been focused on for a few reasons. The first is that at this point, the government still does not fund a great deal of research for steroids. There are only four federally funded scientists to understand the effects on the brain. The testing of the tests for long-term reliability is a story that actually needs to be done.

There really are two separate conversations that need to take place: the science of steroids and the political handling of the steroid story. I focused on the latter.

The other part of <hotwired>'s post that resonated with me is the question of if there is 'anything culturally or ethically different now than before and why should I care?'

I think that is the most vexing question of the whole thing, because it can be broken down across so many different criteria. People watch for so many different reasons; We had a talk once about the whole 'level playing field' argument, which really disturbs him. He brought up Lance Armstrong, Secretariat and I think a set of twins into the discussion.

1. Was it a level playing field that Secretariat's heart was supposedly larger than the competition?

2. or that Armstrong has a system that oddly pumps more blood at a faster rate than his competitors?

3. or what if you have a set of twins, but one of them has a larger lung capacity than the other.

I understand his point. The "playing field" is never level, which obscures the steroid element.

there is question of "why do we watch," which might be the murkiest of all. At some level, it all comes back to the individual who must decide the effects of these substances, and this story on why they care about and believe in the game.

and then there is the WOD, which John Hoberman is so adamant about as a motivation, that this has become a political discussion instead of a scientific one.

In any case,I apologize for the long post, and flash of temper, but I do agree that we need more information (or more reporting, or more time) to achieve that next level of conversation. [Read entire topic]

#100: Chip Bayers (hotwired) Fri 5 Aug 05 22:29

Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:29:00 PDT

Howard, I don't know why you're getting angry with my posts when you're the one who strongly implied that Palmeiro's improvement at the plate after May 29 was directly attributable to his steroid use.

"Since then, with the steroids still in his system, he went on a tear. People use them, because they help. A lot."

To answer <vard>'s question, I have never been particularly exercised about the WOSD. In general, though, I'm a pretty strong civil libertarian, which is only reinforced, I supposed, by my experiences as a journalist.

And as a journalist who is not reporting on this subject everyday but who is trying to understand it, I have been incredibly frustrated by the utter lack of reliable information when it comes to understanding exactly what steroids do for baseball players, or why I should care.

I mean, take the Canseco comments about metabolites: I take it the Crusader crowd has already dismissed his remarks, although in very Ron Ziegler-esque language. "Rhetorical nonsense," is Gary Wadler's response, according to ESPN tonight. But can Gary Wadler or anyone point me to the study that shows what the testing results are for long-time steroid users years after they've cycled off the drugs?

As Howard himself said tonight to Bob Ley, "this whole thing is a wreck right now." The confidentiality of the testing process has been utterly violated, both openly and through the rumor mill Howard describes in his Matt Stair's anecdote. The witch hunt impulse of the media, already at a fever pitch, has gone off the charts. Congress pursuing a perjury charge just cements the odor of McCarthyism in the whole thing.

I love a good illustrative anecdote, both as a writer and as a reader. The problem is that, as the cliche has it, the plural of anecdote is not data. I know from reading Howard's book, and from his comments again tonight on ESPN, that he believes that the "steroid era" is really about a host of other factors. The conversation should really be about that, and about whether the past ten years of Selig baseball is really that different, culturally or ethically, from the previous 120 years of MLB play.

But it's not right now. [Read entire topic]

#99: Howard Bryant (ohmy) Fri 5 Aug 05 18:53

Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:53:00 PDT

And another thing: Jose Canseco is writing *another* book, this one called "Vindicated." Here is the transcript of an interview he gave ESPN, which will run sometime next week on ESPN's new station (ugh) ESPN Hollywood, no ifs ands or buts about it:

JOSE CANSECO * ESPN HOLLYWOOD (love that bug) INTERVIEW

21 HR

3840 Q: So Jose * what*s your take on the Rafael Palmeiro suspension?

3848 Canseco: I feel really bad for him because I know that he*s been completely set up by major league baseball. When a player goes before Congress and starts saying, *I did not take steroids,* when obviously he knows I injected him, I taught him how to use the steroids. I*ve got to figure out there*s something else going on. (3910) To me, major league baseball probably told Palmeiro listen, *We need to discredit Jose Canseco as much as possible. We need someone preferably another Latino, who*s got superstar credentials, to dismiss his allegations of what he*s saying.* So, who better than Rafael Palmeiro? (3929) What Rafael doesn*t realize, he was a pawn. He was a puppet. He was used by major league baseball and the player*s association.

3935 Q: So you do believe there*s possible truth to the fact that major league baseball and the player*s association was involved in some sort of conspiracy?

3944 Canseco: No ifs and buts about it. And eventually it will all come out. Now Palmeiro * um, all of a sudden, how strange, he drug-tested about three or four months ago. (Right.) All of a sudden, let*s look at the time-table here *

3957 Q: (interrupting) Because it was May, correct, he drug-tested around May?

4000 Canseco: So now, he does his 500 home runs, he has 3,000 base hits, and all of a sudden, Rafael Palmeiro tested positive for steroids. Gee, do you really believe that*s a coincidence? No. Bottom line is, Rafael Palmeiro was, at the point in time it seems to me, when he testified before Congress, using some type of steroid. (4026) Major league baseball knew it. Player*s association knew it. But they told him, we*re going to cover your back. We*re going to watch out for you. We*re not going to let this information out. (4037) But you know what? He just got set up like all the other players are being set up. (4039)

4040 Q: And why do you think that*s the case?

4041 Canseco: Um, from the very beginning he probably tested positive (loud sniff) but they needed someone to discredit me. Someone with number one, being another Latino *

4052 Q: (interrupting) And you keep mentioning that, do you find it just a coincidence that the first six out of the seven players that have tested positive for steroids have been Latino? What*s your take on it?

4102 Canseco: Well I, I don*t really know about that. But I do, I can only talk about what I know to be a fact * that Rafael Palmeiro was set up strategically against me to dismiss my allegations towards major league baseball, no ifs, ands, buts about it. (4118) Now Palmeiro says, *Wait to hear my side of the story. Wait to hear the truth.* Palmeiro, if smart, will take my side and go against major league baseball now because they left him out there in the wind to dry. (4131)

4132 Q: Really.

4133 Canseco: No ifs, ands, buts about it. The truth will come out eventually.

4136 Q: So, going back to the first six out of seven being Latino * you don*t believe in the theory that the language barrier could have been a significant factor or is that in fact still a possibility?

4147 Canseco: What I believe more is that these individuals are from, let*s say, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, they*re not regulated, meaning there are certain substances or more or less steroids over there that are legal in their country. (4200) That they can use when they go back * off the baseball season * that there*s no problem. But once they come back to United States, (it) stays in their system, so there could be a language barrier. They*re saying, y/k, *I live in Dominican Republic. Steroids are just chemicals, they*re legal, there*s no restrictions. I can use them there. Then I stop using them. I go to spring training. I test positive.* (Hmm.) That*s how it really works. People don*t understand. (4226)

4227 Q: In the book Jose you say you shot Rafael personally, (Correct) and you also mention other people of course. But is there anything else in the book that we should know, that maybe people don*t?

4238 Canseco: There are a lot of other things that will come out in my second book called *Vindicated,* about major league baseball, how mafia-oriented they really are, how they really run their business, how they ruin athletes* lives, how they manipulate the system. (4253) Um, how they set up athletes to make themselves look better or to cover up for their own mistakes. And I will dissect and internalize exactly what has happened the last 10-15 years in major league baseball. (4307)

4308 Q: Going back to the first book, you also mentioned in the book *Juiced* that President Bush being a former owner of the Texas Rangers of course had to have known that his players were on steroids. And yet recently he still publicly supports Palmeiro. What*s your take on that?

4323 Canseco: (chuckling) It*s a laugher. I, I gotta laugh at it and I think the public has to laugh at it when, from the very beginning, a newspaper columnist wrote an article saying that Bush obviously knew that I was a steroid-user and that I uh, started the steroid revolution in baseball. And they still traded for me. (4347) Nonetheless, again, Palmeiro tests positive for steroid * a steroid called Winstra with is stanozolol, which there*s no way this steroid can be digested (Accidentally?) accidentally by any other way shape or form instead of y/k steroid way. (Right.) No supplements carry that stanozolol in it, and President Bush says, *I believe Rafael Palmeiro * he*s a friend of mine.* (shakes head) I gotta laugh. I don*t understand it. It*s ridiculous. Explain it to me if you can, please. (4422)

4423 Q: Ridiculous and political to the highest form?

4425 Canseco: Well, we know that this world is basically run on strictly politics and it*s y/k, who you know, no ifs and buts about it. (4435)

4436 Q: So, who*s still taking steroids in baseball today?

4438 Canseco: I really don*t believe players are using steroids right now. (4442) What I do believe, and I stated this before, there*s a major problem with a thing called a metabolite in the system. There are no investigations, especially long-term use of steroids, especially in a human being, that says, okay, after 10, 15, 20 years, a metabolite of this steroid disappears. (4503) Metabolite of a steroid basically is an imprint, a fingerprint of what used to be there. And what major league baseball*s going to run into more often than not, is a metabolite of a steroid sometimes is strong enough to mimic a steroid, and that*s where they*re going to come into major problems. (4519) And it*s not fair for these players who are abiding by the rules, and, and, y/k, don*t want to use a steroid or have stopped using steroids, and all of a sudden they*re being penalized for something. It*s ridiculous. (4530) The, I mean, the system is just, it*s got too many loopholes on it. (4534)

4535 Q: Okay, two more quick questions on the subject. With all this that*s been said and done now about Rafael Palmeiro, how do you feel about him possibly still going or not going to the Hall of Fame?

4548 Canseco: I think he should. I think he is an incredible player, has incredible numbers. I think it*s sad that um, that these players when I mention them in my book * my attack was never towards the players. My attack was against major league baseball and the player*s association. (4604) What I needed was one of these players to be by my side and say, *You know, what Jose Canseco is saying is the absolute truth.* (4610) Everything about this book is the truth. We do have a problem. Young kids are being damaged because of steroid use, and if we hide from it, we continue it, somebody could eventually die because of it * a young child * which I think a few have already. And they just hide from it like nothing. (4627) Perfect example of how dominating, how much of a juggernaut, and how militant and how powerful major league baseball can be? They talked to these players and said, *Listen,* they probably said, they know what would happen to them * same thing that would happen to me * they ruined my career, they blackballed me, they got me completely out of baseball 38 home runs short of 500 because of this issue. (4655) These players knew that if they stood against major league baseball, especially Palmeiro, who is the closest to, only eight players in history, 3,000 base hits, 500 home runs. (4705) Now imagine if Palmeiro would have come out in Congress and said, *What Jose is saying is right.* He won*t have a job. (4710) Nobody would take him.

4711 Q: (interrupting) He wouldn*t get the 3,000 hits?

4714 Canseco: No way, he wouldn*t get 3,000 hits, 500 home runs. But look how funny * he testified on behalf of major league baseball. They allowed him to get 3000 base hits, 500 home runs. They what do they do? They left him to dry in the wind. (4727) Okay Palmeiro, we gave you what you wanted. Now we*re going to get rid of you. (4731)

4732 Q: So with that said Jose, how do you feel this latest suspension affects your own credibility now?

4738 Canseco: I don*t think it*s about my credibility. I think it*s just, it*s about telling a story about my life in general. (4746) People touch upon the steroid issue. It*s only like one or two chapters of my book and there*s like 23 chapters. And it*s just ah, a baseball player*s life growing up, being a minority, coming from Cuba, my parents struggling it there, making it here in the United States, and being able to change baseball twice, and it*s fascinating. (4810) [Read entire topic]

#98: Howard Bryant (ohmy) Fri 5 Aug 05 18:49

Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:49:00 PDT

Well, this just in: A source tells me that MLB is sitting on a dozen positive tests, which explains when I was in the dugout at Fenway Park yesterday, my old guy Matt Stairs comes over to me and says, "I'm sick of looking at your fucking shiny dome every time I turn on the TV....you hear somebody else big tested positive?"

My question is: if these things are supposed to be so confidential, how does everyone know this stuff?

Also, how political is this whole thing if MLB is actually staggering the announcements of tests? Talk about opening themselves up to corruption charges.

And get this: Juan Rincon, who was suspended more than two months ago is having his appeal heard *now.* He was told if his appeal was upheld, he would have his service time restored.

but what about his name? [Read entire topic]

#97: Stephanie Vardavas (vard) Fri 5 Aug 05 15:25

Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:25:00 PDT

I think that for a lot of us there is a tendency to view steroids in sports, and/or other performance related substances, as a proxy for our larger views on the War On (Some) Drugs, and I am not certain that they truly are a suitable proxy for that.

Is that part of what's animating you, (hotwired)? [Read entire topic]