Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Tue 17 Aug 99 23:17
Did he deserve it? If so, good for you! Do you have children by this beast? (I realize we are getting up close and personal but hey that's what happens to celebs!)
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Wed 18 Aug 99 09:15
Let's just say - I left him didn't I? And no kids. Just a dog that I got custody of. And that's not the most personal question I've been asked this week.
Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Thu 19 Aug 99 18:33
MJ, you have said you used to be in advertising. What campaigns did you work on that we might be familiar with?
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Thu 19 Aug 99 18:50
Lets see, I won the NOW pig award inthe 80's for bringing back the Maidenform woman and keeping her underessed in public... I did loads of commercials in the 80's for MacDonald's and Opium perfume and Jhirmack Shampoo and Sharp electronic products and ban de Soliel and Enfamil Baby food. My most famous was "Think Big, Big Mac Big" for Macdonalds. But my best work was for the NYPD - the commercial i did for them got in the Musuem of Modern Art's Broadcast Collection. But only about ten people saw it.
this bag is not a toy (vard) Thu 19 Aug 99 21:41
When was this, and what was the ad?
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Fri 20 Aug 99 03:34
The NYPD spot was done about five years ago... and it showed a young man on a building ledge being talked down by a policewoman.
Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 20 Aug 99 14:24
> I won the NOW pig award inthe 80's for bringing back the > Maidenform woman and keeping her underessed in public... I suspect I shouldn't, but I'm LOL at that.
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Fri 20 Aug 99 17:29
Laughing at my typo or the fact that I did do that campaign? Or the fact that I got the PIG award. I don't blame you for laughing at any or all. I was 22 years old... fresh out of college - the copywriter assigned to the account was pregnant and went into labor three weeks early and I was the only other female writer in the agency. The creative director gave me the assignment to do a campaign for Maidenform Bras and I remebered those ads from when I was a kid and thought it would be fun to bring her back as a liberated woman... When we won the PIG award the creative director kindly - he thought - lied about who the writer had been so I wouldn't get hate mail - being a woman and doing ads that were so demeaning. Almost 20 years later, let me take this oppy to apologize.
Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Sat 21 Aug 99 07:22
I love that story! I've gotten hate mail to my website (not up currently) for being a "tool of the patriarchy" because I wrote about sex for money as empowerment. So, have you gotten any flak from NOW or feminists or women about LIP SERVICE?
(apb) Sat 21 Aug 99 09:34
Last night I typed "lipservice.com" instead of "readlipservice.com" and found myself at an interesting website. Unfortunately, there was no anewanais. I managed to find the right address somehow.
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Sat 21 Aug 99 18:14
Yes, I know that other address takes you to quite a different site than mine... glad you found the right address. And as to Feminist flack... not yet. A professor of Poetry at Northridge, Cal does think that Lip Service should be included in feminist lit classes and was going to try to do something about getting it on the roster. I found that intertersting... but can't imagine it will happen. I'm waiting for the flack... I'm expecting it and worse. We'll see how tough my hide is... my guess is its not tough enough.
Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Mon 23 Aug 99 11:56
> Laughing at my typo or the fact that I did do that campaign? Or the > fact that I got the PIG award. I was laughing at the "keeping her underdressed" part (I just saw right past the typo). It seems to me that Madonna was doing her Boy Toy tour at that time, wearing bras and girdles as outerwear right about the time your Maidenform bra campaign hit, too. So there's even more irony to the PIG award, since in another arena, wearing underwear as outwear was a statement of liberation, not subjugation.
Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Mon 23 Aug 99 14:40
I myself cannot stand the feminist "debate" about pornography, because it has not evolved since it began in the late 70s; except that more feminists have come to see the light, that sex can be empowering, that the trouble with porn has been, historically, that it's so male-centered, as is everything else in our culture. With that changing, they are coming around. But, MJ, should you be asked by an interviewer if you feel that portraying phone sex as empowering to women is a delusion or worse, what would you say? (You probably want to hit me for this question!--still, it's a chance to practice, just in case)
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Mon 23 Aug 99 22:07
I can answer this one quick, since one of the characters in the book says just this to Julia - the woman in the book who has just become empowered by doing all this phone sex. There are women for whom it would be a delusion or worse. But I am only talking about one woman - Julia Sterling. And for her phone sex is empowering. Feminism, to moi, is allowing each and every woman to live her life as she sees fit: to use power and gain power and respons to power (and everything else in her life) as an individual.
Gail Williams (gail) Tue 24 Aug 99 12:56
Since we're talking about what feminism means to people today, I might as well ask about this, though it's off the topic of Lip Service... > I myself cannot stand the feminist "debate" about pornography, because > it has not evolved since it began in the late 70s; I had to scratch my head at that and wonder what authors or thinkers you're referring to there, since things look very different to me decade by decade in the various subgroups of self-described feminists.
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Tue 24 Aug 99 18:56
That question is really for Marcy since she's the one Gail is quoting... Marcy?
Marcy Sheiner (mmarquest) Thu 26 Aug 99 08:09
Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon, Women Against Pornography, Women Against Violence Against Women, all began their "crusades" against porn in the late 70s. They claimed that "porn is the theory, rape the act." They still say this. Yes, younger feminists feel quite differently, and people like Glorie Steinem et al have struggled valiantly to define a woman-centered expression of sexuality. But I still hear the old debates going on. I don't read the new books, but I know that, for ex., Diana Russell still preaches the antiporn gospel.
Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 27 Aug 99 14:53
anewanais, what do you think of the "porn is the theory, rape is the act" stance Marcy mentions above?
Undo Influence (mnemonic) Fri 27 Aug 99 16:30
Cynthia's question is indeed the one that has been lurkin beneath this most recent discussion.
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Sat 28 Aug 99 05:15
This is such a tough issue isn't it? I don't think "porn is the theory" works for all porn. Yes, of course it does for some porn. But the bigger issue to me is freedom - and if we have freedom of speech then we have freedom of every kind of speech. Do I wish we could get rid of anti-semitism, biogotry and racism? Of course. Do I wish men would stop objectifying women? Yes, but... how can we allow some things and not others without seriously damaging our rights. As a woman, writing a book about a woman, I don't think I've written porn. As a woman seeing porn, I don't feel humiliated all the time only some of the time. But then again, I feel just as humiliated if not more so by women's magazines who write idiotic articles about getting, finding and keeping men happy, by the ads for miracle makeup products that make women look like gulible guniea pigs and I'm more angry at women who have tons of plastic surgery to keep the myth of "youth is all" alive than I am at some of the porn I've seen. An interesting note - when I did the research for LIP SERVICE I spoke to a half a dozen women who did phone sex for a living and none of them felt objectified or humiliated - quite the opposite - quite a few felt it was the men who humiliated and who they felt sorry for. These women felt they were getting paid a lot of moeny for doing an easy job.
circled by the circus sands (augustine) Sat 28 Aug 99 20:21
>>I don't think "porn is the theory" works for all porn. >>Yes, of course it does for some porn. It does? Does this mean you believe that some porn incites rape? >>I'm more angry at women who have tons of plastic surgery to keep >>the myth of "youth is all" alive than I am at some of the porn >>I've seen. Does this cause any conflict for you with the previously stated belief that feminism is all about being able to do whatever you want to do?
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Sun 29 Aug 99 13:18
I believe that some porn does make rape seem more acceptable to some men. But still - despite that - I don't know how we could as a society regulate some people from having freedom of speech and not others. To me its the same issue as some movies with gratuitous violence, where the perp of the violence is seen as the hero, give some poor misguided souls the idea that if they too were violent, they too would be heroic. That doesn't mean I advoacte stopping violence. It just means I wish people would take more responsibility for what they create. Which leads me to my asnwer for your second question - a conflict? No. We should all be able to do what we want. Have a ton of plastic surgury or have none.I just get mad at the women who do it to excess becuase its so demeaning and I just wish that we lived in a society where superficial, youthful beauty was not the be all end all. In France, for instance, youthful beuaty is admired and coveted. But there is also another beauty that is appreciated too - the woman over 40. Women over 40 are not as afraid of their wrinkles in France. They perceive themselves, and others percieve them in a much more positive view than we do in America.
Gail Williams (gail) Mon 30 Aug 99 09:40
Makes sense. Being able to do what we want (insert a traditional caveat that nods to the concept of unaceptable acts, malicious harm, mass murder, rape, etc) can not preclude expressing criticism, or attempting to sway popular culture or peer pressure.
circled by the circus sands (augustine) Mon 30 Aug 99 12:14
In my view, the form of "feminism" which says that women have the right to live their lives exactly as they choose, but yet is not accepting of those choices, is hypocritical and meaningless. >>>I believe that some porn does make rape seem more acceptable to >>>some men. Which porn is the bad porn? The seventies feminists were quite clear on their "porn is the theory" tastes, condemning male-created porn that objectified women, which was most everything around then. I assume that sex-positive erotica (Susie Bright, Herotica books, etc.) are good porn, since the sex-positive definition might be anything that goes on between consenting adults. Where is the line on the rest? For example, in your book you include a detailed, graphic, pornographic passage describing the supposed sexual abuse of a teenage girl by her stepfather, including her being burned by a cigarette during sex. Is this the good kind of porn or the bad kind?
M. J. Rose (anewanais) Mon 30 Aug 99 14:36
>>>In my view, the form of "feminism" which says that women have the right to live their lives exactly as they choose, but yet is not accepting of those choices, is hypocritical and meaningless.>>>> I not sure I understand what you mean - but let me clarify my position on this - I am accepting any choices any woman makes. I'm simply sorry that so many woman buy into the youth and beauty myth. I think it damages our self esteem. The passage in my book that you refer to - about sexual abuse of a teenager is not written to titilate the reader - it clearly the warped sexual fantasy of the man who is relating it. I'm frankly surpised that anyone reading the book, who has read Julia's ( the main character) reaction to the deviate on the phone would imagine that I inteneded this man's sickness as anything but a disturbed man's fantasy. I'm simply a writer who in this particular novel explored one woman's experience. My novel is not a treatise on porn - good porn or bad porn. My story is not intended to support or not support the porn industry or moralize on it. I'm not confortable speaking for feminists, only for myself. And for myself, I'm sorry if my answer about porn being the theory isn't satisfying. Its just that in my experience I don't see the majority of porn being any more or less damaging to the people I know who use it or enjoy it than violent movies are - or for that matter any more of less damaging that the media's fascination with youthful beauty. All of the above can do damage. Or no damage. I am more of an "Indivualist" than any thing else.
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