Green Kate (katelacey) Sat 2 Dec 00 21:52
I tested as an introverted Green Mentor. Green seems to correspond to the NF temperament, which fits. My MBTI type is INFJ (and I'm a 4 on the Enneagram). The only doubt I have about my "Q" type is, when I read the description of "Green Land" in the book, I shuddered. All those crafts and stained glass windows and community porches! Yuck. Blueville had more overall appeal for me.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Sat 2 Dec 00 22:33
Blues do correspond to the NT Kiersey Temperament, <kafclown>. And Greens, NFs.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 06:32
To Kate: Sorry about the cut glass and craft. When I created that section of the village, I sat here with another Green friend and we got into a very pronounced and spirited brainstorming session. Obviously we went a little overboard. In fact all the neighborhoods are exaggerated to make their point. And I appreciate the fact that Introverted Judgers (IJs) do not like exaggerations, nor do they like interconnecting porches. I think you will find the actual descriptions of each group more to the point. Now to the testing issues. There is a number of people who have difficulty pinpointing their preferences. In fact, I have been working with someone for three months trying to verify their MBTI type. I have obversed a couple of reasons why people have difficulty and I am sure there are many others. 1. One spouse is very loose, adaptable and flexible and someone in the family has take take over the organization of home, finances, children's medical appts etc. The other spouse takes on the an extreme structured role, whether it is natural to them or not. And since I believe that many of these preferences have a basis in the neurochemical activity of the brain, I think we create the necessary neurons and connections to do that activity well. However, at some point in life, these people begin to yearn for the freedom to follow their natural preferences and therefore begin to find appeal in both answers. 2. The person is a supreme perfectionist. They are so because it was demanded of them by a parent, or because they attended very rigid schools (some of the old parochial schools seem to fit that bill) or they had alcoholism or abuse in the family which forced them to play the adult role too early in their life. 3. The person works in an environment that demands those qualities. Yesterday, I spoke with a Red who is an accountant and (get this one) partner in one of the top accounting firms. Well she tested as a Gold and accepted her Gold profile. But instinctively I knew we were on the wrong track. So I kept talking to her and two hours later we mutually agreed that she is indeed a Red. She is considering a leave of absence to run for political office. Now to you that may not seem like progress, but to her this is a huge amount of fun and very liberating. The person does not read the instructions which say "What you tend to do 51% of the time, under conditions of your ideal choosing." All of these preferences are part of us. We can exercise them or not. It is like they say, a child is born with all the mental templates to learn all the languages in the world. But unless he/she uses those templates, by they age of 6, they are gone. I read this someplace, so I assume this is correct. These are some of the reasons. Do any of them resonate? The best way to resolve this rather irritating issue is to read as many MBTI profiles as possible. If mine don't work for you, then check out those of Isabel Myers in Gifts Differing or Otto Kroegers in Type Talk. Sometimes different wording will make sense. My website has a number of books that I really like. www.LeadershipQ.com Now to Gail's issues about having your students join us online. I think that would be great. Maybe we can all get a better sense of what aspects of the web appeal to each and how should portals be structured to encourage the participation of the different groups. You can also direct them to my website which has a couple of paragraphs on the history and uses of the model. address above in previous para. Finally to our Blue ENTP. For those of you not familiar with the model, I subdivide the Blues into two major categories -- The Blue Strategist who are the focused and structured NTJs and the The Blue Innovators who are the open-ended, flexible and adaptable NTPs. Each is then further subdivided into the extraverts and introverts. So that expands out to the 16 MBTI types. I see more frustrated ENTPS (Extraverted Innovators) around than almost any type, except possibly NFPs (Green Advocates) There are too many possibilities in the world and their span of interest is often very short. Usually, they are quick, bright, interested and gifted in many areas. There are a couple of solutions that seem to work. 1. Surround yourself, particularly at work, with people of complementary talents who will take care of the details and follow up. And here is the important part. Don't get impatient when they challenge you, because they will just put their efforts elsewhere. Show and express appreciation. Tell them you LOVE their logistical skills and they will reward you by taking care of the things you hate to do. 2. Soften some of the more extreme blindspots. The world tolerates idiosyncracies, (particularly if the person is creative,) but it does not tolerate being inconvenienced. So the mantras are ~~~return phone calls within 24 hours (except for pesky salespeople) ~~~do not keep cancelling lunches and other appointments with people just because something more interesting comes along. This should be reserved for very important situations only. ~~~Do not keep people waiting. ~~~Do not hand in material late. ~~~Do not hand in material that is factually inaccurate which will make the other person look stupid. If you do these things, the world will not perceive you as flaky which can be a problem for these two groups. Beyond that, it helps if you can pinpoint your passions and find ways of spending more time with things you love as opposed to those that you do well.
Konsigliari Kafka of the Cosa Nozzo (kafclown) Sun 3 Dec 00 08:49
From your local neighborhood frustrated ENTP BLEU: Thanks, shaya, that actually really describes my sitch-you-ay-shun pretty closely. I work for myself, as a clown, who creates and performs shows all over the world. I also work as my own booking person. I've got lots of great ideas for shows, but seem to fizzle out when I set down to put them out (for every show I make, I've got 15-20 ideas for new shows. And the new shows beckon me when I start bearing down on any particular show) And I've got lots of ideas about how to sell the shows, but they all don't get enacted. I have been thinking that these lacks are due to time constraints (hey how many hats can I wear at a time? ), but as you described it, it's clearly personality motivated as well. So other than getting a tattoo that says "follow through!" on my butt, any other suggestions? Is it possible to beat your personality proclivities? Or should I be trying to judo them into strengths?
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 08:58
Well here is a thought. Have you ever thought of bringing in a partner, someone that would respond heavily towards the first column of the third section on the quiz i.e. someone that is structured, scheduled, goal oriented and who does not mind doing all the follow up. Also let person tell you which of all of your myriad of ideas are actually doable, how long it will take, how much it will cost and is there really a market out there for the product. Offer that person a percentage for selling your show or ideas. Ultimately, if you work well together, you may want to set up a partnership together. It should be someone who is good at sales and does the follow up phone calls. Some good possibilities are extraverted gold conservators or extraverted green mentors. They both do great follow up, they both like people, and they like helping others. The more different the person is from you, the better you can cover all the different types of clients you might be dealing with.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Sun 3 Dec 00 09:37
One of the most profound insights I've ever had after I finally understood the dynamics of a long-term relationship I was involved in was that I'd spent over 15 years operating as my complete opposite (based on my actual preferences). My partner was strongly Introverted, so I had to stop talking about stuff that bothered me at home. He's a Blue (NTP) with much stronger resistance to doing SJ stuff than I, so I was forced to be the SJ in the relationship (or end up in debtor's prison because the bills would've never been paid!). My guess is if I'd taken the MBTI for the first time during those years, I would have ended up a Gold, and very likely an Introverted, Thinking Gold. Couldn't be further from the truth. As Shoya points out, it is important to validate your preferences in your own experience.
Kate Lacey (katelacey) Sun 3 Dec 00 10:50
Shoya thanks for responding about 'Greenville,' I realize it was a fantasy/exaggeration...I was just sort of laughing because the specifics were so not me. On the question of verifying type for people who aren't sure, I think one factor that can come into it is preconceived notions about what a type "is," and resistance to it. The first time I took the MBTI, and was new to it, I was *appalled* at the idea of being a J. Our facilitator made it sound like J's were people who had no sense of humor or fun and alphabetized their refrigerators. I felt so unsettled by the situation of being unsure whether I was "p" or "j" I cannot tell you. Well of course that's because I'm J and I want things settled! I did just what Shoya suggests - read lots of stuff about the MBTI, and I realized I was a J indeed. Which in turn was extremely validating...and helpful, to get some language and context in which to understand my own need for closure and dislike of plan-changes, etc. And truth be told, if I had the time, I'd love to alphabetize my refrigerator.
Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 3 Dec 00 10:54
Fascinating stuff. And great advice to kafclown. Adam, I had to smile when I read your description of your ideas for shows because it's exactly what I experience when making jewelry - I have so many ideas that when I am working on one piece, all the other pieces are loudly beckoning. What happens next, for me, is that I have to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear in order to complete the one at hand, and when I'm done, and ready for the next one, I've tuned it out so completely I can't remember what it was!
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 11:16
I think all of you are confirming that when properly used personality typing is a great tool in many areas of life. But we need to remember that people are fluid and can move in and out of their type when the circumstances require it. Also I find that as people get older they do begin to develop their non preferences.
Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 3 Dec 00 11:33
Is it legal to give a potential employee a test like this during the interview?
Libbi Lepow (paris) Sun 3 Dec 00 14:08
I'd advise strongly against using the MBTI in hiring regardless of whether it's legal or not (and it may well be illegal). As Shoya said, people develop their non-preferences - it's part of maturing and growing - and preference isn't necessarily at all analogous to skill. I may have no preference for S or J, but I can - and do - balance my checkbook to the penny every month and have been known to run complex projects as well. So using preference as a reason to hire someone into a job can be dangerous. imo, of course.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 15:03
Well said Libbi.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Sun 3 Dec 00 16:42
Thanks, Shoya! Would you spend a little more time talking about women's leadership styles, please? I've encountered so many stereotypes about this issue over the years, and am curious to hear more about the learnings from your research for this book.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Mon 4 Dec 00 05:06
I found that there was a broad array of styles that became easier to classify once I could "hook" them, if you will, to some of the MBTI preferences. First there are some major differences in the goal setting process. I call these the "highway" vs "backroad" drivers. Some people set long term goals, get very focused, stick to their plan no matter what and, with a little luck get there faster and more efficiently than others. They also feel grounded and get good press. This is the process that is touted as most effective. An example is Linda Chavez-Thompson the Executive VP of the AFL-CIO who was was asked by her father to drop out of school to pick cotton at the age of 12 but always had a dream of being someone. She joined the labor union as a secretary, made herself valuable to the power brokers and slowly rose the ranks from a bit part in local Texas to riding on Air Force One with Clinton as a representative of 13 million people. Just as a humorous aside, the first thing she did on that plane was call her mother. Another example if of course Hillary Clinton. Backroad drivers are more difficult to analyze because they have short term goals which they move and revise very opportunistically. An example is Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. When things went against her, she and her husband would reassess the situation, set new plans, move and do whatever it took to get to the revised goal. Many speech and dress coaches later, she is, I gather, well on her way to becoming Governor of MD. Another difference, which I alluded to earlier, is the decision making process. 35% of women are "thinking" deciders (make decisions based mainly on logic and objective data) They are heavily represented in high levels of corporations, in finance, on Wall Street, in technology, in accounting, law and many branches of medicine. These women are analytical, task driven, competitive and at ease with conflict and criticism. An example is venture capitalist Darla Moore who is the first woman to have business school named after following her $25 million contribution. She has now taken on the role of revamping the South Carolina legislature which she publicly announced "looks like the governing body of a third world country." They shout her down, and she, looking like a Vogue model, gets up and shouts them down. Now not many women would find this exciting or thrilling. One day she walked into a business meeting and said to her clients "put on your rubber underwear boys, this is going to be a long night." The other 65% have a style that is more collaborative and excel at mining the potential of people around them. They are also more sensitive to criticism and confrontation which can be very stressful. Laura Ziskin president of Fox 2000, several months ago left a very powerful position to become head of her own production company. As she said, "power is not about being a studio head, it is about creating entertainment of value that will stimulate, provoke and challenge people." Jolene Sykes, president of Fortune magazine, describes her leadership style as "a soft lead. I like to get everyone on board with me." This difference creates a different style as well. The final one that I found related more to the Sensing/Intuiting function or also known as concrete/abstract thinking. Leadership gurus often tout the ability to create a vision as the single most important component of leadership. Well the fact is that about 70% of the world cannot create a vision. They cannot create something that does not exist. they can set goals. They can evaluate other people's visions. They can make good decisions and they can mobilize people to achieve superior results. So whenever I asked the people profiled about their vision, which I purposely did, many would look somewhat blankly and say well "my goal is to...." Others leaped into the topic with glee. So that is another difference, although a much more subtle one. Various combinations of the above dimensions, create distinctly different leadership styles.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Mon 4 Dec 00 07:54
Did you see any correlations between the styles of the women you interviewed and the kind of organizations they led?
Libbi Lepow (paris) Mon 4 Dec 00 12:43
I was also interested in how many of the women profiled in your book seem to have had struggles early in their lives. Can you speak to that issue, as well?
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Mon 4 Dec 00 14:34
Well it seems that people who have a long term goal setting preference do best in large cos or well established institutions which are governed by long term plans. The CEOS, Presidents and Senior VPs in my book all fit into this category well. As did the Judge, and Senator Hutchison who came to politics from a five year career running a company. On the other side, those that started cos, ran an internet firm and most of the those in the politics, broadcasting and entertainment fields fit into the short term and flexible goal setting process. The exception to that is Dr. Nancy Snyderman who is actually a practicing doctor and surgeon, and, on the side, makes her mark as the ABC medical correspondent. Again it is important to note that both styles can function well in either world. But there seems to be a marked majority as described above. The second dimension, that of the thinking and feeling decision making process also seems indicative. All of the business managers were thinkers. The feelers worked their way up through the sales, communication and marketing route. The concrete/abstract dimension did not divide in a significant way. As to your second question, I actually set out to find people of different backgrounds so as to provide variety. So I don't think my sample provides insight on whether a difficult early life is predictive and how. About 15% of those profiled came from very poor backgrounds, another 15% from upper social levels and the rest from a broad range of lower to upper middle class.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Mon 4 Dec 00 18:06
Libbi Lepow (paris) Tue 5 Dec 00 18:00
I'm interested in hearing about how you use the LeadershipQ in your work today. Can you share this with us?
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Wed 6 Dec 00 06:25
I am using it in both traditional and new ways. I use it for coaching individuals who are burned out or unhappy with their careers. This usually involves people who find themselves in a field where they are different from the majority of their peers - lawyers, accountants, investment bankers and other high pressured areas. Often we find that the personality type plays a big role. These people are very bright and driven and therefore progress to positions of responsibility, but they get progressively less interested in their work. Once they see where the problem is then there are number of possible solutions. Some change fields, others stay in the field but begin to move into another aspect of it, such as moving from research to marketing. Others who are older and need to stay until early retirement begin to develop hobbies as part time work with the idea of eventually starting a small business. Some just decide to stay put but understand the source of tension and begin to position themselves as a special "niche" and source of expertise. Others begin to put their energy into a new compelling hobby or volunteer activity. For example, I have an investment banker who along with her retired husband is developing a new type of dog kennel. They are both highly attuned to animals. He does the day-to-day, she raises the money, handles the banks, does the marketing and puts time in on weekends. I use it as the basis of seminars for defining management style, developing teams and helping people define their individual "brand" This is of course today's "hot" topic and somewhat overused, but it does help. It helps people create a clear message of who they are, what they want to do and how they differ from their competition. It helps them create what I call "the elevator speech." Now for a more non-traditional use, I am developing 16 investment profiles to provide people with additional insights as to how their personality impacts their approach to money, financial planning, investments, risk and other financial issues. I am marketing this to financial planners/advisors and those folks that deal with 401(k) investors. This is based on research I have been doing for the last five years connecting the Jungian dimensions to financial issues. Otherwise, I use it personally to help me in my sales and marketing, choosing business partners etc. I also use with all the college kids who seem to have adopted me as an honorary Godmother to help them with their career choices.
Mary Mackey (mm) Wed 6 Dec 00 10:29
Sohya, have you ever tried to connect these types to the Ennegram? I did a lot of work with it a number of years ago, and it's been very helpful as I create fictional characters for my novels. I suspect there is quite a bit of overlap.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Wed 6 Dec 00 16:26
Yes Mary there is an interesting overlap but not in terms of similarities. Actually I am fairly new to the Enneagram world but have pursuing the connection. The most interesting tie I have heard of so far is from Pat Wyman, a therapist in MO, who uses the two models as a basis of her practice and is about to come out with a book. She says the enneagram number is the protective circle a child a begins to build around his or her MBTI type to protect the inner core of his/her being. And this makes a lot of sense. So for example you can have an ENFP which would be a Green Advocate Extravert in my book who is an enneagram 1; another who is a 7 and another who is a 9. They all share common core needs, energizers and motivations but they look and act very differently. This is a very interesting overlay that I hope to pursue over the next few months. I think it will go a long way to explain all the variations within each type.
Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Wed 6 Dec 00 19:13
Shoya, reading through this topic I see the primary focus as being directed toward career/financial success. Do you think that the Q quiz can be valuable in terms of conflict in personal relationships?
Mary Mackey (mm) Wed 6 Dec 00 21:41
Thanks, Shoya. That's fascinating.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Thu 7 Dec 00 03:18
I find it invaluable in personal relationships. Anecdotally, I observe that romantic relationships (at least in first marriages or among young people) occur between people who are more different than similar. This could well be a biological imperative. If nothing else, it is nature's way of ensuring that we cover all the bases for the kids. So understanding when someone is just acting true to type and not out to persecute you does indeed reduce stress. The behavior may still irritate you but it is not personal. It is a bit like saying that no matter how cute, affectionate or bred for personality your cat is, it can never be a dog. And if you expect it to be, you just have a very frustrated cat. Many people comment after seminars that they wish they had had this information 20 years ago. They could have saved themselves a lot of arguments, and more than a few divorces as well. Now friendships are different. I find that the people with whom I spend a lot of time , chitchat on the phone , enjoy spending many hours in the car with etc, are very similar to me. We just seem to effortlessly run along the same track. The ones that are different from me, I enjoy and have a lot of respect for, but I see them less often and our conversations tend to be shorter. This is particularly true of family situations, holidays etc, when we do spend a lot of time together and where people cluster around different type groups. Here I would say, the insights are essential.
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