Stopped in Our Tracks

Book Two


Excerpts from U.G.'s Dialogues



Compiled from Audio Tapes



by



K. Chandrasekhar

 


Index of Topics

bullet 
bulletIt Is Bound to Affect the Whole Human Consciousness....
bulletThinking Is the Problem....
bulletYou Are That Movement of Thought....
bulletThe Courage to Be Yourself....
bulletQuestioning the Movement of Thought....
bulletSamadhi and Ultimate Samadhi....
bulletBasic Needs....
bulletDiscover Your Own Path Rejecting All Others....
bullet"Silence Is Brahman"....
bulletThinking Cannot Solve Your Problems....
bulletBeauty....
bulletPhilosophy of Life....
bulletYou Will Never Know a Jivanmukta....
bulletThis Has No Religious Content....
bulletSelflessness....
bulletThis Is Not an Experience....
bulletIt Is a Molecular Activity in the Brain Cells....
bulletSensitivity and Total Attention....
bulletReligion Is Filth....
bulletYou Cannot Be Aware....
bulletThe Purpose of My Conversation....
bulletThe Knowledge You Have About the Mind Is the Mind....
bulletWanting Is Thinking....
bulletMonkeys Who Sit Around the Red Ocher....
bulletBurning of Thought Is Energy....
bulletThere Is Nothing to Do....
bulletOn Art and Artists....
bulletYour Life is Centered Around Eating....
bullet"Be Selfish and Stay Selfish" Is My `Message'....
bullet"Divine Despair" -- an Involvement....
bulletYour Approach....
bullet...They Interest Me....
bulletYou Are Very Safe, You Can't Blast Me....
bulletYou Don't Want This....
bulletWhy Do I Talk?....
bulletWhy Stop the Past?....
bulletIt's Meaningless to Ask the Meaning of Life....
bulletSamskara....
bulletConditioning Is Intelligence....
bulletBelief....
bulletMorality....
bulletReligious Business....
bulletCultures Create a Lopsided Situation....
bulletPleasure and Pain....
bulletFalling Asleep....
bulletBliss and the Body....
bulletDeep Sleep and Turiya....
bulletYou Have to Be Saved from the Very Idea That You Have to Be Saved....
bulletWhen You Know Nothing........
bulletExperiencing the Body....
bulletWho Is Crazy?....
bulletAbout God and Prayers....

 

My Approach....

I am not a `thinker' in the sense in which the word is used. In fact, I have been pointing out to those that come to listen to me that man's problems cannot be solved through thinking. Since he cannot solve his own problems through thinking, there is no question of the world's problems being solved by any thinking by anybody.

This is the essence of my communication to those that come to listen to me. At the same time, I point out that it is also not possible to communicate, because no communication is possible and no communication is necessary.

So, how do I go about this funny way? By making people realize that they cannot solve their problems through thinking. They are suffering and the suffering must come to an end. How can man put an end to his suffering? Naturally it [what I suggest] runs counter to all traditional approaches, both the Indian and Western religious approaches, and also the modern approaches, [the approaches of] the psychologists. And through conversation and communication we try to understand that it is really not possible to understand or communicate what I am saying.

In other words, my objective in carrying on the conversation is to silence [the audience] in a way and put them in a state of silence. And in that silence something can probably happen, and will certainly happen. That's all.

So, I try to meet their arguments. They come with preconceived ideas, concepts and ideals, and then try to argue and debate with me. My approach is to suggest a counterargument and thereby neutralize their argumentative approach to the problem. This is all I do.

* * * *

We all talk of the mind. The religious thinkers, the psychologists -- all talk of the mind. So, every individual has to discover [this state of being] for himself, by himself, and without relying on any authority -- be it religious, scientific or psychological. It has to be your discovery. Otherwise, it has no value.

The state of being I am describing is a state where there is no effort at all. I am just a mirror here reflecting things exactly.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

It Is Bound to Affect the Whole Human Consciousness....

The human race will somehow survive. But the only thing that one can do is to free himself, because it is a pure, unsullied and uncontaminated consciousness that is operating. So, it is bound to affect all those who come into its orbit. You don't have to do a thing. You can sit in one corner of the world, yet it is bound to affect the whole of human consciousness, because it [consciousness everywhere] is the same; it is exactly the same. It has no frontiers; it has no boundaries. So, it [consciousness here] is bound to affect the whole human consciousness. That is why I say that this so-called religious experience is an explosion. When this explosion takes place it is bound to affect the whole of human consciousness. You cannot measure it. It is not a thing to measure and statistically prove that so many people have been benefited by it. It is a very slow process. It takes time.

It is not a spectacular thing. You cannot produce results with all those that come into contact [with it]. Not all those that come into the presence of this consciousness have exploded.

And this happens to one in a million. Not because of what he does or does not do; but because it just happens. You call it grace, chance or ....

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Thinking Is the Problem....

What causes the pain there? It's not your inability to do.... "I just can't do a thing," you begin to think. Thinking is the problem. Sadness is not the problem, but thinking about sadness is the problem.

Stop thinking. Can you stop thinking? You are trying to stop. That means thinking. I am not suggesting that you should not think. Thought is you. If you are not thinking you are not there. Nothing is there. What is there will begin to express itself. Let that express. Then there is no question. Just leave that alone. It will begin to act.

....You perpetuate sorrow through your thinking.

.... Nothing is wrong with you at all. You don't have the courage. Accepting whatever there is is courage. That is intelligence. "I don't want to be other than what I am --" that is the courage. It is there! It is not a thing to be acquired.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

You Are That Movement of Thought....

It is very difficult to understand the area between opposites. If I say I have no friends, it does not mean that I have enemies. If I say that I have no enemies, it does not mean that everybody is a friend to me.

So, how can you understand the state of being where you have neither friends nor enemies?

So, you always swing like a pendulum from one end to the other. That is the movement of thought. It is always between these pairs of opposites. You cannot conceive a state of being where these pairs of opposites do not exist at all.

Q: But why is it so natural?

U.G.: Don't say it is so natural. It is so unnatural -- the unnatural thing you have accepted as natural. That is our tragedy. You have never questioned that, because, if you begin to question, your existence is at stake. You are that. You are not different from this movement of thought.

What is necessary for you is to understand the machinery that is functioning inside of you -- the movement of thought. Supposing I tell you "This is the way," -- then where are you? You experience what I tell you. This knowledge you are going to use and create a state of being and think that you have experienced God, that you have experienced Reality or that you have experienced truth. But that is not the truth. That is not God.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

The Courage to Be Yourself....

You have never let desire just stay there without tampering [with it]. That is life. What can you do without desire? The more you want to tamper with it the more it is suffering. You are always suffering because you want to be other than what you are. You just don't have the courage to be yourself. That means you have to be alone in this world -- one without a second.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Questioning the Movement of Thought....

Somebody looked at the millipede and wondered how this small, tiny little worm is able to walk with a thousand legs. So, he asked the question, "How do you manage to walk? I find it so difficult to walk with my two legs." And so the millipede started thinking. And it died.

In exactly the same way, the moment you begin to question the movement of thought inside of you, you will find that you are ending up in a very surprising situation -- which is a very frightening thing for you.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Samadhi and Ultimate Samadhi....

There is no use of your talking as if you are born. You are never born and you never die. How can there be any death when you are not born?

Neither your birth nor your death can become part of your experiencing structure. That experiencing structure must come to an end. Every one of you will become a self-realized man 48 minutes before you die. I can assure you. But it will be too late. Your body is not in a position to take it. Otherwise, you cannot die. The death always takes place in an unconscious state. You will never die in a conscious state. So, these 48 minutes is the time when you attain Moksha, liberation or whatever you call it. Why do you want to wait till your body becomes useless? You might as well die to the whole thing and begin to live, live in the sense that you understand that there is no beginning and no end.

* * *

The senses are functioning at their peak capacity all the time. They cannot go on. So, every now and then -- that is decided by the circumstances and not by any entity inside -- the defenses must be cut out from outside challenges. So, the eyes may be open, but you see nothing, because the senses are tired. The recovery takes exactly 48 minutes -- the so-called Samadhi. But the ultimate Samadhi -- I don't want to use the word -- it is very misleading -- it is [occurs for] one second by the clock. This body, this nervous system cannot stand that. It is its physical death. You come to the point of physical death -- it is not the death of the mind, death of the psyche, or the death of thought. The body goes through the process of physical death. And why it comes back [to life] God alone knows.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Basic Needs....

Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Discover Your Own Path Rejecting All Others....

The path has to be yours. I don't want to use the term `path', because it has mystical [overtones] .... "My" path, Ramakrishna's path, Jesus's path, or the Buddha's path -- they are all worthless. Nobody can come into this unless or until all the other paths are rejected by him. Then it becomes his own path. So, only if you reject all the other paths can you discover your own path.

Just look at yourself and find out what the hell you are doing with yourself, how you are kidding yourself all the time -- how you follow the path of this man, that man and the other man. You are not interested in my path. The path is not going to lead you anywhere. And the path is going to give you what that man has experienced.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

"Silence Is Brahman"....

How can you understand that silence -- chaotic or otherwise? Is it possible for you to capture that silence? When that silence starts operating through you, it is something extraordinary, something vital and living. This structure which is trying to understand the nature of it, capture it, contain it or give expression to it, cannot co-exist with it.

The difficulty is you seem to know a lot about this state -- you have imagination. You imagine it to be what is described as "Silence is Brahman" and begin to think about it. This imagination must go. That [silence] is something living and the structure which is trying to capture it is a dead structure. You are all dead. You are not living human beings at all. You have never known one living moment in your life. You are living the lives of your thoughts. All thoughts are dead -- it doesn't matter whose thoughts -- whether those of Shankara, of Ramanuja or of the hundreds of sages, saints and saviors we have had and perhaps have still. It is useless to try to understand that. How can you capture it?

If there is any such thing as silence, chaotic or otherwise, living or dead, it will begin to express itself. When it expresses itself you are not there. So, you will never know the nature of that silence at all. What you call silence is not silence at all.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Thinking Cannot Solve Your Problems....

Q: You say that the `silence' will express itself. How is it that it failed in our case?

U.G.: Because you are waiting for the silence to express itself or because you still have the knowledge of that silence.

Q: If the natural state is an equilibrium how come [there is] this disturbance [in us]?

U.G.: Because you are pursuing and seeking a phony equilibrium which does not exist at all, and this [idea of an equilibrium] is the thing which has been put into you by your culture and society. It is the knowledge of self or silence that is creating this disturbance. The idea or concept of silence you have about silence is causing this disturbance. You are that idea and you want to understand how that idea has come into being.

Q: Is there a way to be thinking and at the same time be free from the limitations of thinking?

U.G.: No. That will be another, parallel, movement of thought. It [thought] is a mechanical thing and can solve only mechanical problems. But you want to use it to understand something living; that is the problem. It is not intended for that. Human problems are something living. You cannot use thinking to solve those problems.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Beauty....

What is beauty? Where is beauty? Is it in the object or in the eye?

You project your idea of beauty on the object you are looking at. That is all. There is a beautiful sunset there. The moment you even say to yourself that it is beautiful, you are not looking at it at all.

Beauty is not in the object. It is not in the beholder's eye either. It is in the total abandonment of yourself.

So, what is beauty? You really don't know. You wouldn't know what you are looking at. And in that state of not knowing what is there fills the whole of your being. That you may call beauty. But there is nobody who describes that beauty and says he is enjoying it. If you capture that in terms of your experiencing structure, then it is lost.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Philosophy of Life....

Q: What is your philosophy of life?

U.G.: None whatsoever. Do you need a philosophy to live? Do you need to know the purpose of life and meaning of life [in order to] live? You are not living. For only a dead person is interested in asking such questions, not a living man.

Whatever meaning you give to life, those ideas are picked up from here, there and everywhere. If it [life] has any meaning, I would never know.

* * *

Q: How do you distinguish the living from the dead? You say that we are dead.

U.G.: Any question that comes from anybody is born out of death, not out of a living thing.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

You Will Never Know a Jivanmukta....

Q: What are the features of a Jivanmukta or a Jnani or a Yogi?

U.G.: I wish I knew. If a Jivanmukta is sitting right in front of you, you will never know [that he is one]. You have no way of knowing whether a man is a Jivanmukta. You have a definition, a behavior pattern. If he fits into that framework, you call him a Jivanmukta. If there is anyone like that, he will never know that he is a self-realized man or a Jivanmukta. You have been told by somebody that I am a Jivanmukta. I may be a phony, a clever chap. I have picked up the art of elocution and all that. I have travelled around the world. Any actor could do that. How would you know?

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This Has No Religious Content....

What I have been trying to say to those that come to listen to me and to those that care to listen to me is that what I have been saying has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. We have all been told, and some of us have been brought up with the belief, that by accepting certain beliefs and trying to live up to them in our daily life, and by due steps, we can aspire to become religious or whatever you want to call it. I am only describing a state of being which is a pure and simple physical and physiological state of being. It has no religious content. It has no mystical overtones at all.

Probably you want to discuss very serious subjects like attachment and detachment, refinement, sensitivity, and so on and so forth. I have precious little to say on those subjects. You will practice attachment or detachment for the rest of your life, but will never be free from either attachment or detachment. You will always be caught up in the two.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Selflessness....

Selflessness is a great big myth. Anything you do, any movement in any direction on any level is strengthening the self.

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This Is Not an Experience....

This is not an experience. I cannot share it with you. If it is an experience, I can at least try to make you experience it through words, through descriptions, through phrases, through painting and musical compositions and so on.

You cannot capture this, contain this or give expression to this. This is outside the range of experience.

I don't know if you see the total helplessness of the situation.

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It Is a Molecular Activity in the Brain Cells....

The eyes are there like two camera lenses. You don't have to do a thing at all. That [the object outside] is moving the lenses. It is just a reflection of that on the retina -- like a mirror. You do not look into the index card system and say to yourself that it is a mountain.

This is what I mean when I say that it is a pure and simple chemical activity, a molecular activity in the brain cells. Nothing else. You don't have a religious mind. There is no mind apart from thought. There is nothing.

* * *

The mind is always closed in. As long as the mind is there, it is that which is preventing you from understanding things.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Sensitivity and Total Attention....

You can talk of total attention. But it is not that. The object that is outside of you is demanding total attention. Not you. When that demands total attention, you cannot even blink. When the eyes stay open for a long time, they become dry. And you may even go blind. That is a pathological condition. But there is a built-in mechanism. The other glands are activated and they supply the water.

The sensitivity is the sensitivity of the senses. As long as you interfere with the senses, that is gone.

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Religion Is Filth....

All the religions -- no matter what country they come from -- what all they teach you, all that is false. Because that is not real. That is falsifying you.

There isn't anything you can do. But you are still doing. There isn't anything to be done. You listen to some chap talking and to the descriptions of somebody. You open a book and read. There is nothing to be done whatsoever. If that is so, you wouldn't listen to anybody. You wouldn't read any books, except those you need to make a living. You wouldn't touch this stuff. If you touch it, you need a detergent to wash your hands. It is so filthy. Because it is false. You will have nothing to do with it.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

You Cannot Be Aware....

Do you know what you mean by the word "aware"? Probably you use it in the sense that "I think," "I feel," and so on. It is very important to understand. The dictionary says: "the condition of being aware."

You cannot be aware of anything. Somebody has fed people with this kind of `Bum-dole`. You have been fed so long on this bunk that anybody saying anything on this probably creates some kind of indigestion there. You want the same thing there. What exactly do you mean by `aware'? You cannot be aware. There is no you. When there is an awareness there is no you. It is not there. It [the awareness] is aware of itself. It sounds mystical, but it is so. The anger or the feeling is aware of itself.

The `you' separates you from that. That is the movement of thought. There is nothing else other than what you are looking at.

* * *

My emphasis is that awareness cannot be separated from the activity of the brain. It cannot be used as an instrument to understand anything, much less to bring about any change.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

The Purpose of My Conversation....

Questioning is not a hallmark of intelligence. Cessation of questioning is intelligence.

You do not seem to realize that it is not possible for you to break yourself free from the methods of thought that prevent you from seeing the limitations of all these concepts and direct experiences.

These are all metaphysical questions. I have no answers for any metaphysical questions because I am not thinking metaphysically. I am not thinking in concepts. You may very well ask whether it is possible to use words without concepts. I say it is possible. There is no content to these words. These are not born out of any concept. They are just words.

To imagine that there is a state of nonverbal conceptualization is just a myth.

The purpose of this conversation is to enable you to break free from the methods of thought as a means to understand anything.

* * *

I cannot help you. You cannot help yourself. This is the situation. I want to push [you] into.... Maybe it helps.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

The Knowledge You Have About the Mind Is the Mind....

The knowledge you have about the mind is the mind. If it is possible for you to be free from this knowledge, then [for you] there is no mind. The mind and the knowledge you have about the mind are one and the same. There may be something like the mind, but you will never know that. It can't become part of your conscious thinking.

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Wanting Is Thinking....

Wanting is thinking. As long as you want to do anything -- `I want to understand myself,' `I want to be free from this movement of thought,' [that] is thinking. You need thinking just to function in this world. But other than that, anything you want is thinking. You get the material for thinking always from somebody. Otherwise, there is no thinking.

* * *

Love is also thinking. `I love my wife,' `I love my house,' `I love my bank account' -- all that is thinking. That is why I say that it [thinking] is destructive. If there is any such thing as love, there is no thinking. No relationship.

What you call love is just a vibration. If it is not reciprocated, it turns itself into either apathy or hatred.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Monkeys Who Sit Around the Red Ocher....

I was telling my friends yesterday about the simile we had in one of our books. Those who go to listen to spiritual discourses, those who read books of a religious nature, and those who are looking beyond for something are like the monkeys who sit around the red ocher trying to warm themselves. You know what red ocher is. It is red in color, just like flame, but there is no warmth.

There isn't anything that you can get from any religious or spiritual discourses. What I have been trying to point out to those that come to listen to me and care to listen to me is that there is nothing to achieve, nothing to accomplish, and nothing to attain. What is it that you want? And what is it that you are searching for? That is my question. If you are searching for anything, if you want anything, then the first thing you must do is to throw away lock, barrel and stock and book, bell and the candle, the stuff you are hanging on to. You have to throw the whole lot into the cocked hat. Otherwise, there isn't any chance for you to be yourself. If you follow any path -- it doesn't matter what that path is -- it is leading you astray. It is putting you on the wrong path. If you make anything out of what I have been saying, then you are lost, body and soul. And, if there is a God, out of sheer mercy He should save you all and save you from me and persons like me.

One thing I make very clear: I am not here to liberate you at all. What is it that you want to liberate yourself from? You are trying to ask for a thing which you have.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

Burning of Thought Is Energy....

Burning of thought is energy. That is life. Combustion of thought. Another kind of energy is created by the will: the thought sphere, the antenna. Sensations are also thoughts. Anger is energy. You will never be free from thoughts. Alchemy is burning of thought.

Since I don't know what I am saying, I say I am not telling you the same thing as the "Old Man" [J. Krishnamurti]. What I am saying is not the product of thinking. These words are just coming out. I am describing the state of being. It requires a tremendous courage to be yourself.

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There Is Nothing to Do....

As long as you ask yourself the question, "Why not me? Why should this happen to somebody else?" there isn't any chance of your making it. I have to use the words "making it," because you are all trying to make it -- whatever it is you want to make.

It's a thing which you cannot reach or make -- [it's not a] reachable or gettable thing. All this search -- the search for this non-existent thing, that thing called `enlightenment' seems futile to me. And the futility of this search is what I have been trying to communicate to those that come to see me and care to listen to me. I also explain that the so-called enlightenment, self- realization, God-realization, or what you will, is a pure and simple physical and physiological state of being. It is just the pulse, beat and throb of life.

There is nothing to do. You are all the time interested in doing something. That is the one thing where you don't have to do a thing. If you can be that, just be that, you are in that state. You are not in my state or somebody else's state. That is your state. That is the natural state.

That is the way you are all functioning. What prevents that to give expression to it is this movement of thought.

You are all thinking about it. That is the thing which you can never capture through thinking.

Return to the Index of Topics

 

On Art and Artists....

She is a painter. She can understand what I am trying to point out. If she wants really to paint how you look like, she will never be able to do that. She is projecting the idea. She has abstracted from the object that is there: "This is probably the way the person is like...."

So, she is putting the idea or abstraction of what she is looking at onto the canvas and she says, "This is the picture." So, she cannot -- if she were a real artist -- she will never be able to paint or make a portrait of him. It is impossible. That's the real artist. These are not the artists -- not these people who put you on canvas. These are just technicians. I am sorry.

So, there is no such thing as an artist at all. He is just a technician. He or she has learned the technique of painting. They are just technicians, artisans, like the carpenters, masons, etc.

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Your Life Is Centered Around Eating....

Q: I think that your talking carries your message.

U.G.: No. The talking is always emphasizing that there is no message. That is the talking. If that is what you call a message, then yes. The message is that there is no message.

Q: Is there any conscious effort on your part in giving expression to....

U.G.: How can there be any conscious effort? Whatever comes out of me is the expression of that state. There is no conscious effort at all. I am not conscious of anything at any time except when there is a need for it.

Q: There is this Charvaka Siddhantam [the Charvaka doctrine] -- that you have only to eat and be merry.

U.G.: ... and borrow money and never repay. The Charvaka emphasizes the reality of the world. Here he is [sounds] something like a revisionist. But I say this reality which you have taken for granted is not so real as it appears to be. Quite the opposite. I am not recommending that you should drink, eat and be merry.

Q: Do you mean to say that anything one does is a waste of time?

U.G.: Eating is not a waste of time. The whole of your life is centered around eating, Sir! Your working there in the office for eight hours [a day] and making money -- the whole thing is centered around eating. Your education, your marriage also -- so that somebody could cook for you, your children -- so that they can maintain you in your old age -- everything is the extension of the same activity.

Q: All activities, then, are for the sake of nothing but eating....

U.G.:That's all. How much can you eat? Why do you want such a huge bank balance? You want your children, great grand children -- all of them to be secure. Ultimately your house, your food, your pleasures -- that is all you are concerned with.

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"Be Selfish and Stay Selfish" Is My `Message'....

I am not saying anything against your bank balance or concern for yourself. I want you to do that [keep them].

Man is always selfish and will remain selfish as long as he practices selflessness. I have nothing against selfish people because that is a reality. I don't want you to talk about selflessness. That has really no basis at all. "Tomorrow" you will be a marvelous man. When tomorrow arrives you push it to day-after-tomorrow, or next life. But until then you will stay selfish.

I have never said to anybody, "Don't be selfish." "Be selfish and stay selfish," that is my message. Wanting enlightenment is selfishness. Charity is selfishness.

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"Divine Despair" -- an Involvement....

The change is only "tomorrow." You can't do anything about that. When tomorrow arrives you push to day-after-tomorrow, next life.

That is where this Existentialism comes into the picture. It creates a despair in you. If you are really interested in bringing about change, you will find that you cannot really do anything. The absurdity of wanting to change dawns on you. On that foundation they have built this tremendous structure of thought called "despair."

There are two schools of [Existentialist] thought -- religious and atheistic. J-P.Sartre, the French writer, belongs to the latter one.

They also talked of "Divine despair." It is always related to hope. One cannot exist without the other. Hope of things changing for the better, hope of finding some guru who can enlighten you.

Q: Is it possible to do anything without any involvement?

U.G.: It is possible. That means there is no relationship at all. All relationships are based on involvement. There are only temporary relationships as with your landlord. They are purely temporary.

Q: We get involved unfortunately with everything we do. If I marry I get involved. If I don't marry, I get involved.

U.G.: To practice non-involvement is meaningless. You are just not involved. That's all. There is no emotional content in the involvement. I have neither rights nor duties.

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Your Approach....

You can never say anything about what I am saying. If there is to be any understanding about what is being said here, it must express itself there. Then you will not talk about me. You will not explain me to somebody. You will explain yourself. That will be something new, something radical, something extraordinary.

The ideal situation should be not to remember these things, not to recapitulate things, not to discuss these things with yourself or with somebody or ruminate. You just walk out. You will never come back.

If you listen to me year after year, you are only clarifying your thoughts. It is useless. If you go out without recalling anything that is talked about, that would be the best thing. Don't recall anything. Can you do that?

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...They Interest Me....

...Sometimes I read the TIME Magazine. Even there I am not involved. I am not involved with what I am reading. I don't even know what I am reading sometimes. It is very strange: when I read crime fiction, the suspense doesn't interest me at all. I am not involved with the build up of suspense. Just read the sentences and action ... somebody kills somebody else....

That is why I see mythological movies: Hanuman flying across the ocean and carrying Sanjeeva Parvata, his tail -- those are the things that interest me. I read CHANDAMAMA -- interesting stories. Comic stuff. Donald duck, Mickey Mouse -- comic strips interest me.

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You Are Very Safe, You Can't Blast Me....

U.G.: What I am saying will create and intensify the neurotic situation there. Don't listen to me. Fortunately you have a very thick skin. Nothing is going to penetrate that. You are safe. Gowdapada provides the gloves, the Bhagavad Gita provides a coat jacket. Brahmasutras provide a leather bullet-proof trousers. So, you are safe.

Q: You are condemning whatever has been said before. Don't you think you may also be condemned and blasted....

U.G.: If you have the guts [to do that], I will be the first person to salute you. You can't do that because you are relying upon the Gita and the Upanishads -- not upon yourself. If you have the guts, you will be the only person who can make what I am saying false. You don't have to say that. I myself am saying that what I am saying is false as far as you are concerned.

A Gowdapada could do it. But he is not here. You are reading and repeating what Gowdapada had said. It is a worthless statement as far as you are concerned.

Q: It is a hopeless situation.

U.G.: The situation is not hopeless. You want to be in that hopeless situation because you don't want to be free from selfishness, from fear, jealousy, envy, etc. The hope is in selfishness, the hope is in greed, in anger, in jealousy, and not in the practice of opposites.

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You Don't Want This....

Anything I do to help you would be adding to your misery -- that's all. You add one more misery to those you already have, by listening to me. To that extent it is doing no good to you.

* * *

Freeing yourself from any one of these things [selfishness, anger, envy, etc.] is the end of you. Please -- in your interest -- out of compassion I am telling you: this is not what you want. This is not something you can make happen. It is not in your hands. Whomsoever it chooses -- it hits him. If you really want Moksha that can happen now. Everybody will attain Moksha just a few minutes, or hours as the case may be, before the black van arrives to reduce the body to ashes.

...What you want you can get elsewhere. "Go to the temple, go around the tree, hang from the tree. Repeat this mantra and put on ashes." Then somebody comes along and says, "Do this and give me a week's wages of yours." Some other fellow comes along saying, "Don't do all that. What I am saying is more revolutionary: be choicelessly aware," and then builds schools, organizations and Tantric centers....

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Why Do I Talk?....

My dialogue has no meaning at all. You may very well ask me why the hell I am talking. I assure you that it is not at all in the nature of self-fulfillment in my case. What I am doing is not a motiveless thing. Your coming here creates a sort of motive. I feel that I must help you, that you are suffering, that you want some answers to your questions. There is a temporary motive: it is to make clear that there is nothing to understand.

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Why Stop the Past?....

Why should you stop the past from interfering with the present? You have been brainwashed by all those holy men, gurus, teachers and the so-called enlightened people that the past should die, should come to an end. "If you attain this, life would be hunky-dory -- full of sweetness." You have fallen for all that romantic stuff. If you try to suppress the past and try to be in the present, it will drive you crazy. You are trying to control something which is beyond your control.

It is not only your past. It's the entire past, entire existence of every human being and every form of life. It is not such an easy thing. It is like trying to stop this flow of the river through all those artificial means. It will inundate the whole thing.

What is it that you can do? Anything you do in any direction, at any level, is perpetuating that.

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It's Meaningless to Ask the Meaning of Life....

U.G.: Why talk of meaning of life? Why do you want to mystify? You are here somehow. There may not be any meaning. You obviously see no meaning in life. Everything you do seems absolutely meaningless.

Q: There must be some goal, aim....

U.G.: The moment the baby is born the goal is to survive -- that is the instinct. To feed itself, survive and reproduce one like itself. That seems to be the way of life. Life is expressing itself, that's all.

The body is responding to the stimuli -- the pulse, beat and throb of life. When those things stop, then what you call `clinical death' takes place.

But life is still continuing, but not in the way you want [it to]. The form disintegrates into the constituent elements and that becomes the basis for another form of life. Anyway, that is no consolation to you because the instrument you are using to understand the meaning of life is interested only in continuing.

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Samskara....

Samskara is conditioning. Tradition is another word for it. That is what you are, what you call `you'. You cannot change it. Modify it and it continues. The whole thing is pathological. You separate the pathological and psychological. But actually there is only the pathological. Samskara is pathological conditioning.

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Conditioning Is Intelligence....

It is not possible for you to be without conditioning. No matter what you do, you are conditioned. The unconditioning that the spiritual gurus are talking about in the market place is a bogus affair. You will find out. Anything you do is conditioning. What you have to be free from is the desire to be free from conditioning. Conditioning is intelligence. This conditioning I am talking about is happening in a different way -- not [through] the ideations and mentations.

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Belief....

Belief is an extension of yourself, not an abstraction. It is like the habit of drinking or smoking. The more you try to stop it, the stronger grows the habit. You talk of faith when you are not sure. Belief -- where is the need for faith?

When belief is not producing the results you expect of that, you introduce what is called faith. You must have faith in that belief. That means hope.

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Morality....

Only a man who is talking of moral things is the one who can be immoral. Since there is no such thing as immorality for me, I do not preach morals. That's all. I cannot take any moral position. The one who talks of morals and devotion is a humbug.

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Religious Business....

The whole religious business is nothing but moral codes of conduct. It is a social thing -- nothing religious about it. There is no difference between the policeman and the religious man. The religious man puts the policeman inside you. It is more difficult to handle the policeman inside you. You can corrupt the policeman out there.

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Cultures Create a Lopsided Situation....

All these cultures -- oriental or Occidental -- have created this lopsided situation for man and turned him into a neurotic individual. For example kindness: in the very nature of things it is not possible to emphasize only kindness and selflessness. Violence is part of nature. You have to kill something to survive. One form of life lives on another form of life. But you have condemned killing. Our culture has emphasized the one and only kindness. That is why this suffering of man, tremendous sorrow for man, because he is trying to have the one without the other.

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Pleasure and Pain....

Both extremes -- pleasure and intense pain -- are painful for the body. The response is the same as far as the body is concerned. The body has no independent existence, as it is not separate from what you call pleasure or pain. The vibrations may be different. The intensity of each vibration may be different. You demand a particular sensation. So, you divide them -- good and bad.

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Falling Asleep....

When there is great suffering and depression, you go to sleep. You fall asleep. It is nature's way of taking care of the situation. It's the same with doing the Gayatri Japa. Since you can't stop doing that you go to sleep.

...Why do you smoke cigarettes? It [a cigarette] also does the same as Ram Nam. Having a glass of beer or a cigarette is the same as repeating Ram Nam. You attach significance to Ram Nam.

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Bliss and the Body....

The body is interested in its survival and reproducing one like itself. The only way it can reproduce itself is through the use of thought. So, thought is very essential for the survival of the living organism. The body is not interested in spiritual activity or psychological activity. None of the spiritual experiences are of any value to the body. On the other hand, they create a tremendous strain. The bliss, beatitude, love, compassion -- all those that the religious man had placed before us are only adding to the strain of the body.

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Deep Sleep and Turiya....

Why are you talking of deep sleep? If there is any such thing as deep sleep, it is not possible for any individual who is in deep sleep to know anything about that. So, don't talk about deep sleep. Deep sleep is the death of the whole body -- not the fancy dying to your yesterdays. The body goes through what is called a clinical death at the moment when there is deep sleep. At that moment there is no body there. The body may or may not come back [to life] from that deep sleep. If, due to some strange chance, it comes back to life and is able to renew itself, the whole life -- genetically programmed life -- is there.

After this deep sleep there is no more sleep for the body.

* * *

You are talking of the Turiya state where there is no division. Do you know what you are talking about? All your sadhana is the very thing that is creating the division there. Through knowing you think, you will become. Maybe that fellow who talked about it was in a state of bliss. What good is that? If you experience that, it is false. If you touch the man, it is false.

The Atman is created by that junk Mandukya Upanishad. You don't have to get drunk to understand sobriety.

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You Have to Be Saved from the Very Idea That You Have to Be Saved....

You have to be saved from the very idea that you have to be saved. If it has to happen, it has to happen now. The chance is here, now, not tomorrow. But you say it is a hopeless situation. My words ...., they don't operate. No chance.

Whoever is interested in spiritual matters is a candidate for the lunatic asylum. The line of demarcation between the mystic and the madcap is very thin. This one madcap is a clinical case and the other is on the way.

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When You Know Nothing....

When you know nothing, you say a lot. But when you know something, there is nothing to say.

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Experiencing the Body....

This body, you see, whose body is it? I have no way of saying to myself, "This is my body." I have no way of directly experiencing this body for myself. Not experiencing funny little things called `separation of the body` -- that is a neurological disorder. Many people have experienced the separation of their body. A neurological disorder can bring about the separation of the body -- as if you are something different, you experience your own body. That is not what I talking about. I cannot separate myself at all, because there is nothing here to separate myself from.

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Who Is Crazy?....

There was a psychiatrist, a leading psychiatrist, who came to see me in Marseilles. We talked for hours and hours and days. He wanted to be with me all the time. He was one of the top notch psychiatrists and psychologists. One day I think he remained with me for 24 hours. He talked, talked and talked. "This is a textbook case, a mental case, you know. I should put you in the hospital for the way you talk," he said, "but there is one question I really don't know [the answer to]: whether I am insane or you are insane." So he left his job after that encounter with me. Luckily he had some other degree. He had specialized in tropical medicine, [began practicing that] and left psychiatry. "What I am doing in the hospital is something terrible," he said. He went away because he thought that if he had remained with me for long he would go crazy. I never saw him again.

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About God and Prayers....

To have only pleasure without a moment of pain is just not possible. That is why you have invented enlightenment, eternal happiness, God, ultimate pleasure. What is that quotation, "When you talk to God, it is called prayer, and when God talks to you, you are called crazy." All your interests are materialistic.

Why do you pray to God? What do you want him to give you? Why should he? It is like the man who loses in his business. Somebody else is gaining, like in the stock market. On whose side should God be? How many millions of gods have you invented! We have seventy crores of gods. Double the number now. We have to find new animals for their vehicular movements. The old species are extinct now.

How can such a God who is supposed to be all merciful answer your prayers? That God is a crook. If he wants you to pray to give you whatever you want, something is funny there. He should give to everybody without prayer. The one who prays gets the goodies and the one who doesn't pray, like me, loses everything. What kind of God is he!

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