inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #201 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Wed 14 Mar 01 17:51
    
I loved the bit in the book describing a system for tagging the birds with
transmitters and having individual windmills shut down when the birds got
within a certain range.  This was for eagles or condors or something large
and endangered IIRC.

Was it ever implemented?
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #202 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 14 Mar 01 22:30
    
        First, the avian issue began in the Altamont, for very specific
reasons.  The population, particularly raptors, is completely hemmed in
by civilization on all sides, is fueled by abundant feed, including
ground squirrels that are no longer poisoned there, so becomes quite
focused.  The issue does not arise to anywhere near the same degree in
other areas, with the obvious exception of windplants built right in
the major flyway between Africa and Spain.

        Second, Altamont has a predominant buildout of downwind turbines on
lattice towers, in other words, perches.  The far more prevalent
tubular towers, found on virtually all modern windmills, provide no
perches.

        Third, while i do not question the desire on the part of some
government employees to strongly protect rare and endangered species,
which i fully support, i question the context entirely.  Some of them
seem to enjoy the notoriety they would otherwise be unable to obtain,
and thus they continue to place ridiculous obstacles in the way of a
technology which is trying to prevent human folly, even death.  And
where are their voices about the killing done on a far worse level by
fuels which try to compete with wind?

        Fourth, put it all in context, it's a minor problem in the Altamont
and much less elsewhere, but it's nothing compared to the destruction
from oil spills, stack effluents, tailgate emissions, and leftover
split atoms.  The wind industry has been diligent to the extreme in
addressing an issue which should pale beside true issues.  (This is not
to say the industry response has been perfect, but certainly better
than good, perhaps even diligent to the extreme.)

        As to Native elders, eagles and windpower, tune in next post, when i
might be persuaded tell some wonderful stories.

        Did anyone notice San Francisco plans to purchase 70 MWs in the
Altamont, and study the ridges near Hetch-Hetchy?
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #203 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 14 Mar 01 22:34
    
        And please, let's hear from the Autobahn Society why windmills should
be banned and oil tankers should continue.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #204 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Thu 15 Mar 01 01:09
    
Actually after doing the round-and-round with Enron on Tejon they came
up with this quite reasonable statement in 1999:

http://www.audubon.org/news/release/enron.html
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #205 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Thu 15 Mar 01 07:39
    
The radio-tagged idea was in relation to condors and was never
implemented because the proposed project was killed.

Teh bird issue help topple Kenetech and is a convenient target for
pro-nuclear zealots who want to ding renewables as a way of building
support for nuclear.

I'm writing a piece today for the SF Chronicle on why nuclear is not a
solution to the current supply crunch -- even if these large,
centralized sources of power are not as bad as coal plants.

But I want to hear some of Randy's stories, which were inadvertently
cut from the conclusion of my book. What of the issue of a lack of
eagle feathers for Native Americans to perform their magic? What do the
elders think of this issue of eagle kills?
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #206 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 15 Mar 01 14:52
    

Conference rooms are evidently hazardous to birds as evidenced by the
pigeon that slammed so hard into our (one-story building) window that it
left an impression of itself on the glass.  Next, we learned that
squirrels eat dead pigeons, but I digress...

Clearly we should also ban conference rooms.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #207 of 318: 'Got To! (freeform) Thu 15 Mar 01 16:55
    
But what is the answer to the bird problem???  It's still a felony to kill
an endangered raptor regardless of the application.  Big bad PG&E was hauled
into court in the 70's because eagles were being electrocuted on the
distribution lines.  The settlement then was for PG&E to develop a "raptor
construction" for raptor habitats, which has clearance between the
conductors greater than the wing span of an eagle.

I don't know about the pro-nuke zealots, but there are many sincere bird
lovers that are supporting efforts to protect the birds.  Unless the wind
industry can come up with a solution, it will continue to be a ding against
renewables.  The problem will not go away by itself.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #208 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Thu 15 Mar 01 17:52
    
                Yo! Phred.  I should have said "Autobahn Societies" to more clearly
state that i was metaphorically referring to all the enviromental
groups who don't attack the real problems who have attacked windpower
over the years.

        REgarding endangered species deaths:
        In the project i built, our permit did not require raptor protection
on our collection lines.  We installed them anyway at our expense,
because it was the right thing to do.  Still, a small number of eagles
die over the years, no matter what we do.  Eagles or other raptors also
die from electrocution at Tesla substsation, the largest in the world,
at the DWR substation which powers the California aqueduct, and other
technological sites in the Altamont.  We never hear about shutting down
the water supply to Southern California, however.
        Some analysts figure the number of premature human deaths from power
plants and vehicle exhaust to be 60,000 per year.  Unlike the wind
industry being tarred and feathered by the avian mortality issue
there's no outcry about the "human mortality" issue.

        Remember, we don't see serious raptor problems except in the
Altamont, and when the lattice towers are replaced, there will be a
significant decrease in raptor collisions.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #209 of 318: 'Got To! (freeform) Fri 16 Mar 01 06:55
    
That's reasonable.  Removing or replacing the lattice towers would at least
mitigate the problem.  When PG&E created a raptor construction for
distribution lines, it certainly didn't eliminate bird deaths.  It did
significantly reduce the numbers in areas with eagle populations, like the
hills around Marysville.

From my perspective, the wind industry isn't alone in being "tarred and
feathered" over issues over which there is no easy solution.  It's difficult
to identify the real issues once the media and public opinion come into
play.  But I can't agree with the statement about "no outcry aout the human
mortality issue."  Remember the media-fueled hysteria about PCB and EMF?
I've dealt with utility customers who were deathly afraid of both PCB and
EMF, and everything they knew about both issues had been learned on the
evening news.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #210 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Fri 16 Mar 01 20:32
    
Now here's a new twist.  I am not sure I believe in conspiracies or
evil plans, but it seems like wind is going to take the fall if the
utilities go into bankruptcy.  By maneuvering to avoid making payments
to small wind generators and other QFs ("qualifying facilities"), Edison
and PG&E have conveniently focused intense pressure on very small
economic players who may have no choice, from a "prudent manager" point
of view, to move forward with a bankruptcy petition.

http://www.latimes.com/news/state/20010316/t000022987.html
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #211 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 17 Mar 01 10:57
    
        The president of CORAM, Brian O'Sullivan, is a former president of
the American Wind Energy Association.  His actions are likely the
result of 17 years of Edison intransigence as well as the current
financial impasse.  I'm pleased that he has the courage to take strong
action.
        The LA Times article states that QFs provide 27% of Cali energy. 
Remember that wind is but a small portion of QFs, providing only 1%.  I
applaud Brian's action, and trust it underscores the amount of
deception in the current situation.  Perhaps it will be a step toward
shedding light on this complex matter.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #212 of 318: John Payn (satyr) Sat 17 Mar 01 13:31
    <scribbled by satyr Sat 17 Mar 01 14:24>
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #213 of 318: windblowne (satyr) Sat 17 Mar 01 14:28
    
<212> was about a CNN report on alternative sources of energy, but I
couldn't find anything about it on cnn.com so it seemed better to
scribble than to leave possibly erroneous information posted.

But it sounded interesting, so if you happen to see the announcement,
please pass along the details.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #214 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 17 Mar 01 17:18
    
Howdy folks. Happy St. Patty's Day.

No green beer yet, but that could change.

I think my book provides a good balance on the bird issue. All of the
early data came from the Altamont Pass, and it happened to be the worst
case scenario. 

Still, there are incredibly amounts of raptors at the Altamont. A
story published last year in the SF Examiner said population levels of
virtually all species was way up in the East Bay. The story didn't even
mention the wind farms as a threat.

I do think it probably was a good idea not to release the Condors
there. I can't wait to go to the Pinnacles and see one there!
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #215 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sat 17 Mar 01 17:29
    
Randy, I'm not following the math here.  In a December news release,
shown below, Tom Gray says that California has 1600 MW of wind capacity
generating 1.5% of the state's power (i.e, something like 550 average
megawatts out of 40,000 statewide, the remaining increment being from
regional imports from the Northwest and the Southwest).  Of course, as
Tom notes, 1.5% isn't trifling, it's what San Francisco uses.  

So, if all wind comes under QF arrangements, that would be about 5% of
all QF power.  Or else a lot of wind isn't QF anymore -- maybe you could
elaborate on this.

http://www.awea.org/news/news001222ces.html
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #216 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 17 Mar 01 20:12
    
        ...Why i no longer believe in stats.  Even if they weren't all
bullshit, no one remembers them the next day anyway.
        At it's peak, wind delivered 1.5% Cali energy.  Now down to about 1%
with aging plant retirements.  At it's peak, Cali was approx 5% of QFs,
as Fred noted.  Now down to about 3+% of QFs, or 1% of the state.
        Main point, there ain't enough wind, or solar, or conservation.
        We all know that.  They all know that.  Problem?
        If you ask Dick Cheney, and he answered honestly, he would say, "you
lost, we won, we like our cash flow, go fuck off."
        What he doesn't realize is we won the hearts and minds game.
        We also have sanity, intelligence, and the desire to consider the
needs of future generations on our side.  He has martial law.
        This Cali battle is only the tip of the iceberg.  It's about to get
really serious, this is only a skirmish.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #217 of 318: David Gans (tnf) Sun 18 Mar 01 13:23
    

KATHLEEN FROM POINT ARENA writes:


Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:02:52 -0800
To: inkwell-hosts@well.com
From: Kathleen York <jazzbird@mcn.org>
Subject: Windmills and Birds

Peter,  this is Kathleen from Point Arena.  Has anyone ever tried using the
red and silver metallic tape that cherry growers use?  The birds think it
is fire and stay away. Why aren't windmill enclosed in wire cages like fans
and would that help protect the birds?

Our town's prospects for building our city wind farm has been helped by the
fact that Virginia Strom- Martin is our Assebly Representative and as you
know she is in favor of projects like ours. By the way, the proposed motto
for our power company is-  POWER TO THE PEOPLE!  Kathleen,  jazzbird@mcn.org
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #218 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 19 Mar 01 10:08
    
I get the question about cages and turbine blades a lot. It isn't very
practical and the cages would hinder power production and be a
logistical problem. 

There have been experiments with painting blades with a special kind
of black piajt that birds see easily. Unfortunately, the plug was
pulled on the research when Kenetech filed for bankruptcy.

As I mentioned before, today's wind turbines are much more
bird-friendly than some of the earlier designs. The key is to do
research up-front identifying any sensitive populations BEFORE you
build a wind farm.

Power to the People is a great name!!! I've used it myself in a paper
I drafted urging local governments to play a larger role in shaping
energy strategies....
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #219 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Tue 20 Mar 01 20:39
    
So the only guys who haven't been paid in this crisis are the
renewable generators -- the ones who first volunteered to reduce their
charges....what does this say about our political system?
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #220 of 318: Kathleen York (jonl) Wed 21 Mar 01 08:09
    
Email from Kathleen York:

Peter, As an outsider looking in on your industry, the bird kill issue is
huge. This Monday on an NPR show on the energy crisis, the bird issue was
used effectively by the pro- fossil fuel guest to say that wind was not a
good option.

Has anyone tried putting a very minimalistic structure around each
windmill?  It could be like an modern art installation with say four posts
with red and silver metal tape hung vertically designed so they can twist
and mimic the bird scare tape?  We have huge bird populations here in
Point Arena and we will be a perfect labratory to work on the bird kill
problem. We invite any windsmiths who would like to work on this issue to
contact us.  Maybe we can test that black paint you mentioned.  Kathleen
York, Power To The People, email jazzbird@mcn.org
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #221 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Wed 21 Mar 01 08:56
    
That bit about fossil lobbyists bad-mouthing wind makes me ill.  What was
the bird death toll of Valdez?  A quick web serch turns up numbers from
35,000 to several hundred thousand.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #222 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 21 Mar 01 16:52
    
        Does anyone read the posts in this discussion?  How much have we
addressed the avian issue?  Do people still think there are no birds or
environmental protectors in Germany, Denmark, Spain, Greece, england,
Ireland, Netherlands, Minnesota, Iowa, Texas, Colorado, New York,
Pennsylvania, Tehachapi, San Gorgonio?
        Though i'm turning blue, a type of turbine and tower manufactured in
the Altamont Pass by a company that no longer exists has caused a minor
problem in one wind resource area.  The rest of the world has no
problem with windpower, including Native Elder protectors of eagles.
        The problem is, power plants kill people.  Please america, wake up. 
You're being lied to by your leaders, you're being manipulated because
of your addiction to fossil fuels, and the rest of the industrial world
is laughing at you, when they're not angry.
        Power plants kill people.  1.9 million per year worldwide, according
to NRDC, and i'll bet my career that's conservative.
        
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #223 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 21 Mar 01 18:37
    

Well...okay, I'll bite.  How did power plants kill that many people?
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #224 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 21 Mar 01 20:50
    
        First, the correct stat is 1.9 million people per year, but not
worldwide, just in China alone.  And the stat is from that bastion of
environmental activism, the World Bank.  (Earth Odyssey, Mark
Hertsgaard, a heroic journey into the heart of the world's problems,
and a few solutions.)
        Here in the US NRDC estimated 60,000 premature deaths per year.
        Fred will have to check me here, but i believe the predominant killer
is particulates, particularly the small ones, less than 2.5
micrometers, which can't be scrubbed at present, though mercury,
sulphers and other joyous substances play a role.  i believe the
majority of deaths are from various lung diseases.
        When some jerk on NPR talks about windmills and birds, where are the
thousands of callers reminding everyone about the lakes and forests of
the northeast, dead or dying from coal and oil plants in the midwest?
        Biscuit brought up the Valdez, a very apt comparison.  But it's
worse... what will the world think when the entire remaining Ogoni
tribe in Columbia commits suicide to protest Occidental Petroleum
drilling for oil, as they've threatened.
        On the glass half full side, the corrupt forces of conventional
energy wouldn't be focused so hard at making the bird issue stick as a
meme if we weren't winning.
        The golden age of renewable energy, a sustainable future, is here for
the taking, possibly for the last time.  america's hitting with two
strikes, and a poor batting average.  So if we want this future, it
probably means a few hours out of everyone's week every week, doing
something to grab the golden solar ring.
  
inkwell.vue.105 : Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #225 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Fri 23 Mar 01 07:47
    
Pbviously, Randy has little patience for the bird issue. I agree that
problem has been overblown, but I also beleive that well-meaning bird
watchers are genuine in their concern. When someone hears a stat about
X amount of eagles killed per year, the numbers are not in context.

In terms of Point Arena, I'm not sure what scale of project Kathleen
is talking about. A few turbines will not be a threat to bird species.
Most of the larger machines today move so slowly that even the dumbest
pigeon could probably escape harm. And folks that put up small wind
turbines also don't ahve much to worry about. The chances of a bird
strike are tiny -- and not much larger than a bird stiking a TV antenna
or similar structure.

There has been a lot of useful work on birds and wind turbines.
Environmentalists need to be educated about this issue so that we can
build the broadest base of support for wind and all renewables.

Paint, sound, types of towers, speed of rotor, are all factors that
can reduce mortality. 

With the global climate change, wind energy has to be part of the
solution, if not the primary intitial response. Randy is right in
proving some context. For the nuclear and fossil industry to bash wind
over birds is completely misleading. Monitoring of all of the recent
wind farms that have gone in the ground in Minnesota reveal no problem
whatsoever. The myth of the bird kill issue as a major problem for new
development needs to be debunked -- but the wind industry also needs to
be sensitive to the views of well-meaning people who are naturalists.
These folks eyes need to be opened to the alternatives we have. I think
once all of the facts are on the table, we can all agree that wind,
and other renewables, are the only way. 
  

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