Ellen Dubrowin (ellen) Tue 12 Dec 00 21:43
<scribbled by ellen Wed 30 Jul 08 20:38>
Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Tue 12 Dec 00 21:51
Shoya, after you respond to castle, I'd like to know what you would say to people who are sceptical about these categories this quiz divides people into? I came out a pretty strong Gold when I took the quiz, yet I reject several of the personality traits ascribed to that type. "Golds ... value prosperity as evidence of hard work" for example doesn't describe my outlook at all. And "They are also the most effective in making lists and making plans in advance" doesn't match me at all. I *hate* lists and am not very strong about long-range plans. I tend to address things as they come up.
Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Tue 12 Dec 00 21:51
(ellen slipped in with a query while I was composing my post)
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Wed 13 Dec 00 05:05
First of all this model should not be viewed as four boxes. I use the analogy of a village with four neighborhoods, all of which is in your brain. You travel each day, or hour in some cases, from neighborhood to neighborhood. Your work may be in one, your children in another, you clients in another. You have the capacity to function in all. Home neighborhood however is where you function best, with greatest ease, energy and skill. So what is the big deal about knowing where home is. It is hugely stress reducing. For example It helps you define your strengths and unique abilities, understand how you interact (or conflict) with important people in your life, choose the right people to make your project or volunteer committee function well, pinpoint new fields or avocations you might want to explore and many other things including the work I am doing on how your type impacts the way you invest your money. So why all the confusion. There could be a couple of reasons. You may have taken the MBTI originally when there were certain demands made on your life. You might have been in a very structured job. Or you might have grown up in a family where there was a predominance of a type different from yours. All of this skews the way you frame the questions. And that ultimately skews the way you answer them. Most in the MBTI community believe people do not really change their type in life.. They might however do two things. 1) they get liberated to be who they really are sometime later in life than usual (I have see this happen to people in their 40s and overnight You may remember my story of the accountant who has entered the political fray). Or 2 sometime in their 40s they begin to develop their non preferences. Carl Jung said human beings have a yearning to develop all parts of themselves. So for example my sister in law a VERY strong gold, who runs a business and has more on her calendar a day than most have in a week, suddenly said a few months ago, "I think I will go out and take a class in philosophy." I almost fell off my chair. Now she does not love this class, but she is experimenting with developing the abstract part of her brain and she finds that kind of exhilarating. I have another friend who is a Blue and an abstract thinker who has never had any interest in concrete stuff. All of a sudden she became a passionate gardener and now can name every weed (sometimes even in Latin),studies soil conditions and every other bit of detail needed for her garden. She is developing the concrete (S) part of her brain. let's going back to the original problem of determining what is your real type (where your "home" neighborhood is,) If there is confusions, you need to do a little more reading about what the preferences are and how do they operate in real life situations. So let me try to do a little bit of that now. To both Linda and Cynthia the differences (Gold and Red) and (NTP or NTJ) come down to the J and P function or section III of my quiz. you need to pinpoint whether you prefer to a.have structure and schedules - not having a plan is uncomfortable have a neat desk, purse, briefcase, closet etc. get things finished as early as possible,(well before the deadline). find it hard to concentrate if your environment is disorganized. before beginning a task like to review that everything is on hand are always on time. Do not see why this is not a priority to others have pretty much a plan in life that you tend to stick to. These are the Js. This makes you a (Gold) or an NTJ. b. if on the other hand, you prefer to be flexible and spontaneous, tend to have a messy purse, briefcase and desk, get things done at the last minute, and often overschedule yourself start new projects before finishing the last one. It is not that you lack focus, you have your own way of going back and forth are relatively easy going, and adaptable like surprises and the unexpected when starting a project, just plunge and solve problems as they arise This makes you a Red or an NTP. Linda. Look at your jewelry making space. Do you put things away when you are finished. Are your supplies in clear categories. Do you tend to finish one piece before you start another. It could be that you are close, but again you do have a slight preference for one. You cannot be both of the above. You can be moderately one way or another, Now Linda the difference between Blue and Green comes down whether you a T (Thinker) or an F(feeler). If you are a thinker you tend to be better at finding flaws in a system, good at analyzing plans and objectively evaluating people can be blunt and outspoken like to debate, sometimes just to challenge will argue both sides don't like to put emotions on display more interested in what people think than what they feel A preference for the above makes you a T and a Blue not a Green If are an F you like to know how people feel about things people seek you out because of your warmth and nurturing qualities when you disagree with someone, you try to downplay it sometimes have trouble asking for what you want or need have deep empathy, understanding where people are coming from tend to avoid confrontation whenever possible. (Ts don't particularly like it but hey it is a part of life and let's just deal with it and get on with things. Fs often feel that once things are said, you can't take them back. Confrontation is painful.) Abigail Disney who is in my book and sits in many philanthropic boards says she gets a nosebleed in the middle of the meeting if there are too many arguments. She now leaves the room and goes into a meditative state to stop it. Another individual who started her own company, said she get nauseous during her board meetings, because her board members confront her on many of the business issues. These are true Fs. Now to Ellen's type conflict of INTJ (Blue) vs Red Here the difference is whether you are a concrete (S) or abstract (N)thinker. Ss tend to be practical realistic and matter of fact like utilizing the skills they already have speak, hear and interpret things literally be good observers of surroundings and detail be more interested in talking about real situations than theories and ideas. often like to read history and biographies more interested in facts than theories this would make you a Red Ns look for the underlying pattern and don't like getting caught up in facts. are not observant of detail read between the lines, pay attention to implications like to speculate about what is not stated don't pay much attention to immediate surroundings. enjoy conversations about abstractions and theories. like to do things in new ways tend to use metaphors and analogies in their speech. usually have longer and more complicated sentences. like books like Future Shock and Clicking If you have chosen more in the first set you are a Red. If you have chosen more items in the lower section you are a Blue or INTJ. Does this help?
Konsigliari Kafka of the Cosa Nozzo (kafclown) Wed 13 Dec 00 05:45
Shaya, you are REALLY good at explaining the differences! In fact, you should write a book... Oh, you already did! :o) You have been incredibly helpful!
Libbi Lepow (paris) Wed 13 Dec 00 06:58
I agree with #80. I don't think I've encountered anyone who is as able to describe the different preferences and how they manifest as clearly and practically as you do, Shoya.
just some misplaced Joan of Arc (strega) Wed 13 Dec 00 06:59
This has been an interesting read. I took the test and was green, but not strongly green. What Linda said about the meeting was exactly what I was thinking. I would hate all of the small talk when I had flown in for something else. But then when you described how Greens feel about finances and the surrounding info, I laughed. I have the same financial advisor as Libbi does. She sends me letters that start out with news about her family (I know these folks and am happy to hear about what's going on with them). Then the letters go into the financia details. I skip them, and go to the end to see if she's recommended any changes, and breathe a sigh of relief when I don't have to do anything. And I have never once opened a financial statement from the investment companies.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Wed 13 Dec 00 07:00
<heh> I'm clearly channeling Donna in the way I deal with correspondence from our mutual financial advisor!
Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 13 Dec 00 17:27
Whom I have yet to call, but will. Soon. Very soon. %^) I am so clearly a mix. The question you asked about my jewelry-making space illustrates it perfectly. When I first started, I bought a lot of little organizer things and put the things in it. Then, I had more stuff than organizer things. But still, I strictly made myself finish a project and put everything away before starting a new project. Then, I started a project, and started getting special requests that people would pay for immediately, so I put down the project and addressed the special requests. Then, I took a class that inspired me to do a bunch of other stuff and never went back to the other project, and left out on the table all the pieces for doing these particular pieces that there'd been a lot of demand for in case I had a minute or two to do some. Then, I kept buying these different kinds of work trays. Now what I have is a different project under construction in each work tray, all the new materials are piled up haphazardly all over the table instead of finding some place to put them and my work space is steadily creeping out of the dining room and into the living room. Every time I sit down to work on a project - like right now where everything is a Christmas gift - I strongly want to straighten everything up and clear up the clutter so my eyes can concentrate on the project at hand, but I recognize that if I do so, I will never start the project, so the piles stay and I make the piece. But I am never completely at peace with myself while doing so. It's a constant struggle. I experience a similar struggle between scheduling and wanting to be spontaneous.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Wed 13 Dec 00 17:38
And the preference for Judging in your latest MBTI was very slight, Linda. Last time I think you scored a slight preference for Perceiving. So this being betwixt and between makes sense to me.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Thu 14 Dec 00 02:22
well thank you all. To Strega, you do sound like a green. To Linda, you do sound like a perceiver And at some point we should put this financial planner on the list of recommended service providers . I do think, people do better when working with their own type. I suspect however that the world is not overflowing with green financial planners.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Thu 14 Dec 00 08:25
>the world is not overflowing with Green financial planners. Amen to that. When Donna recommended her to me, I felt like I'd been given a gift I could never repay.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Fri 15 Dec 00 08:00
I keep thinking about your image of one's "home" as the way to describe the way it feels to be operating inside your preferences, and realize that's the best analogy I've encountered so far. It's true - when you're operating in a place that draws on your preferences (or living in that Red or Gold house), you feel comfortable. Things come easily. There's little or no stress, and very little seems out of place. That doesn't mean you never go outside your house, obviously, or get rained on or chilled or whatever - it just means that you understand where that comfortable space is. Thanks for that image, Shoya!
Linda Castellani (castle) Fri 15 Dec 00 11:28
I remember having a dream once, where I understood that when you operated in that space, which Shoya calls home, that you actually vibrate at the correct frequency. In the dream that was represented by images of exquisite white dresses whose proportions and styling were simply perfect to gaze upon. Since then, I've understood that "vibrating at the correct frequency" is the way you feel when looking at something that is somehow so right, whose colors fill your eyes with delight, or hearing music that touches your very soul, or the way that light refracts into a million rainbows from the surface of a gem. That's home. I guess I got carried away just a bit, there. I came to say thank you, Shoya and Libbi, for the delightful job you did in introducing us to this work and these concepts. I definitely want to know more now! I thank you for being with us for these last two weeks. You are welcome to continue for as long as you like, we'd love to have you as long as you would like to stay.
Libbi Lepow (paris) Fri 15 Dec 00 11:30
Let me join Linda in thanking Shoya for her thoughtful responses to all the questions we hurled her way, and for her creating the LeadershipQ. I urge you to find a copy of her book and read it - it's as well-written and informative as everything she's shared here.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sat 16 Dec 00 13:09
thanks to you both. It has indeed been a pleasure and a lot of fun. I will check in from time to time if anyone has any more questions on different applications of this model Happy holidays to all.
Nancy White (choco) Sun 17 Dec 00 08:02
THANKS! (and I'm awaiting the arrival of my book -- ordered last week!)
Reva Basch (reva) Mon 18 Dec 00 12:06
Shoya, I've been lurking, not posting but reading your fascinating responses. I've learned a lot, and I appreciate the time and effort you spent here.
Fleur Helsingor (fhelsing) Mon 18 Dec 00 12:25
Same here. I found your work to be very enlightening.
Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Fri 22 Dec 00 08:11
Well,I am delighted. Considering it as my mission to get this info out like a giant virus, new "sneezers" are always welcome.
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