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inkwell.vue.341 : Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #201 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Fri 19 Dec 08 08:34
    
>I think that the amount of money they are allowed to accept from 
>pharmaceutical companies should be dropped to zero.  $10,000 is
>still way too much.

Well, you see, it's been scientifically established that 10 grand is
the threshold at which corruption begins. 

>I also question whether medical clinicians are scientists.

Certainly most practicing docs outside of research institutions are
not also practicing scientists. But they speak a scientific language,
and more important, they derive their authority from being steeped in
the scientific tradition. THey were trained as scientists (think about
the pre-med and med school curricula) and their knowledge comes from
scientific journals and their practice is based on scientific
knowledge.
  
inkwell.vue.341 : Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #202 of 207: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 19 Dec 08 10:09
    
"Well, you see, it's been scientifically established that 10 grand is
the threshold at which corruption begins." 

$10k is also the threshold amount where banks and escrow companies are
required to fill out a disclosure form for the IRS.
  
inkwell.vue.341 : Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #203 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Fri 19 Dec 08 12:54
    
Although, as Eliot Spitzer points out, banks are free to report any
transactions under $10K that seem suspicious.
  
inkwell.vue.341 : Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #204 of 207: Elisabeth (wickett) Wed 24 Dec 08 11:08
    

I remain unconvinced about clinicians as scientists.  I certainly wouldn't
classify med students as scientists.  They are busy cramming facts into
their heads and learning skills, not questing, questioning, and repeating
experiments.  A certain distance and informed curiosity are just a couple 
of the essential qualities of a scientist, in my view.  

One of the reasons I mentioned the neurologist is because she noticed a 
phenomenon that cries out for scientific investigation.  I suspect many 
clinicians see similar odd clumps of unexpected correlation or dissonance, 
the investigation of which could potentially lead to clearer diagnositic 
criteria and more effective treatments.
  
inkwell.vue.341 : Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #205 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Thu 25 Dec 08 02:06
    
I think what you're saying is that most clinicians don't meet your
definition of what a scientist should be. I'm sure that's true. But
"scientist" is not only a profession. It's an orientation toward
knowledge, or an epistemology. And epistemologically speaking, whether
they want to be or not, doctors are, to stretch the language a little,
scientistic. 
  
inkwell.vue.341 : Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #206 of 207: Elisabeth (wickett) Fri 26 Dec 08 06:44
    

I like "scientistic!"  That describes well the interior view of the 
medical profession.  The credence given to medical pronouncements by 
non-medical people, however, tends to skip over the gap between scientific 
and scientistic.  

I look forward to reading your book to see how you handle the distinction.  
I do not remember that the discussion here touched on that particular 
dissonance.
  
inkwell.vue.341 : Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #207 of 207: Hugh Watkins (hughw1936uk) Fri 26 Dec 08 17:33
    
some people are football fans

I am a "science fan" 
eg  aim  to comprehend all sciences at the "Scientific American "
level
  



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